/kc/ - Krautchan

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It was already proven to be inferior long before that. It's difficult to use in rough terrain and it's less mobile and versatile. Units cannot be broken off and retasked as easily and formations can't react and change direction as effectively. They were also fighting Goths with their heavy cavalry which historically didn't go well for their infantry in general which were surrounded and would not have gone well for phalanxes either as they are even easier to surround and flank.

 >>/38523/
How many heavy cavalry did the goths had though, it would be understandable if it was sassanian or parthian army as they had really heavy cavalries.

I just wonder what alexander the gr8 could pulled of pulled of with long spear bois and what romans couldn't. Don' get me wrong what you say is correct. I'm not even phalanxboo

 >>/38524/
I don't think they had too much at that point but it was there and had an effect.

Alexander also relied on cavalry, it was not really the phalanx that won the battle, they would just hold the line while his companion cavalry and Hypaspists worked around the flanks.

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 >>/38522/
 >>/38524/
By that time, the military formation was outdated. It was mostly a Macedonian tactic. With Rome capturing everything, it pretty much kys'd after a while. Here's some backstory on it.

> The ancient Greek historian Polybius goes into some detail about the effectiveness of the Roman legion against the phalanx. He deduces that the Romans refused to fight the phalanx where the phalanx was most effective and offered battle only when they felt that they could exploit the clumsiness and immobility of the phalanx. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx#Classical_decline_and_post-classical_use

The idea of phalanx was probably dropped as inferior tactics. And then on the northern frontiers they relied more on paying off local chiefs than by organizing military. That's how the foederati became a thing and that's how duxes and rexes emerged. They had their own way of conducting warfare and those whom they fought had very similar tactics. Which could be very flexible so even if a central will had existed to train the soldiers/warriors on the borders to use phalanx as their basic formation/tactics, the adversaries could just retreat, run circles around them, and bit them while they were on the march. I also think most battles were more liek the size of skirmishes, until the Huns arrived.

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The... pdf
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Relevant: The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare.
It's a two volume book, the second contains the parts about the later Roman Empire. This particular pdf contains both, was published in 2008, so it's fairly recent, most likely summarizing the most recent findings and standpoint.

testing

testing

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Makers of... pdf
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Even more relevant: Makers of Ancient Strategy - From the Persian Wars to the Fall of Rome. Also fairly recent, from 2010.
Here the important chapter is the 10th. Holding the Line - Frontier Defense and the Later Roman Empire. This is exactly the time and place OPs question refer to.
Reading a bit into that it seems it takes a more practical then theoretical view on this. For example it notes that foreign relations and military politics many times weren't stood on the rationality or realpolitik, but was subjected to the daily politics of Rome, and military actions were committed or military investments were spent simply as a justification of heavy taxation, or as publicity stunt.

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 >>/38522/
> Why late roman army didn't reintroduce the phalanxes

Greeks/Macedonians didn't won any decisive battle against Romans in war, maybe only in first year. So, phalanx wasn't that good.

Considering "phalanx" in broad sense, i.e. tight formation of heavy infantry - Romans already had it, even in times of Macedonian war (they had maniples etc). Only real difference is long spear, but looks like it proved itself not so good.

> limitanei, feodorati could use the formation

These two categories weren't best in their training and skills, considering their purpose and composition. I guess they weren't good in formations that require discipline at all.

 >>/38565/
Britannia is a funny tv-show.

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pic unrel
also completely unrelated to the thread but does anyone know of any sources on the religious practices of the greeks or romans relating to their classic pantheons, zeus, hera etc. not the imperial cult of rome or anything, i've been wondering lately what the real day to day practices were like.

Because late roman army had to be even more mobile and irregular to defend and counter attack.
Phalanx already in hellenistic period was outdated.

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 >>/38569/
> also completely unrelated to the thread but does anyone know of any sources on the religious practices of the greeks or romans relating to their classic pantheons, zeus, hera etc. not the imperial cult of rome or anything

Here is the book, although I didn't read it completely, but it looks ok.

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Let's have a big jump in time.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35106/check-out-this-sailor-holding-a-laser-dazzler-rifle-aboard-nuclear-submarine-uss-minnesota
Forget about the laser. What's up with that funky Viking flag on the other side?

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Here's that laser thingy at the manufacturer's page:
https://bemeyers.com/glare-la-9-p
Or maybe designer and dealer, if I have to guess the actual production takes place in China by a Chinese company.
It's for signalling, warning, blinding optics of drones and such, and most likely can come in handy to point out details during lectures if the presentation projected to far away.
How lasers find their way into military applications. I guess one with cutting capabilities has too high electricity requirement. Maybe there are safety concerns too, ironically.

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 >>/38814/
> What's up with that funky Viking flag on the other side?

It is Odin's raven banner, and Odin had one eye. I guess they tried to say that their lasers are good in blinding the opponents.

But actually, Minnesota (submarine also called USS Minnesota) has pretty large share of people with Scandinavian descent, and even some hand-soccer team called "Vikings". So maybe it is some kind of local influences.

 >>/38818/
> I guess one with cutting capabilities has too high electricity requirement

There are plenty of problems for "damaging" lasers that couldn't be solved, maybe never. For example, atmosphere is pretty bad thing for long laser beams, they dissipate quickly, so energy requirement for laser is very high. It is much easier to use kinetic projectile, and even if you have such amount of energy, it is better to use it to speed up projectile (i.e. railgun is just better). That is why such type of lasers have specific fields of use, like high-atmosphere interception (where beam speed is the main goal, and air is thin) or very close range cutting.

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If they want to protect drones from lasers all they have to do is polish them and they will bounce the laser away.

 >>/38843/
Can do that with the optics?

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 >>/38845/
Cover them in one way mirrors.

 >>/38846/
Don't tell Russia and the Arabs.

 >>/38833/
> viking stuff
Sounds plausible.
> hand-soccer
Kek, this was new to me.
> laser
They should work on phasers anyway.

They did it the absolute madmen.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=J8Sa_q-Lz6g

 >>/38878/
You mean they step up from 120mm to 130?

 >>/38879/
Exactly, the Armata is done for now.

 >>/38880/
I guess 130 should have a stronger punch, but is 120 really underpowered? Larger shells also mean less amount on aboard.

 >>/38881/
Probably not, but I think they have reached a bottleneck regarding future development. The new round is said to increase penetration by half and they are developing airburst HE for it too. It's also an Autoloader which will save some space. A tank with 130mm airburst sounds like a terribly scary thing.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2020_global_security_army_industry/rheinmettall_unveils_new_leopard_tank_mbt_with_130mm_cannon.html

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 >>/38882/
I see.

 >>/38882/
> to counter new Russian combat vehicles based on the Armata heavy tracked platform
Last time that one prototype didn't even work. Also looks like some molded plastic box with Flintstones propulsion. Germany and Russia won't ever war against each other due the the nukes, and other countries with Russian tech won't get Armata until leik 2050. If Russia gets any by that time.

 >>/38884/
2100 sorry.

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 >>/38884/
I think nukes are overrated. Nations are not going to want to use them in limited warfare which is what most wars are going to most likely look like between major powers now. But yes, I don't think Germany has much reason even for limited warfare with Russia. But Rheinmetal doesn't just sell to Germany, they have gotten a leg up on the competition again and so most next generation western tanks are probably going to end up with their 130mm or a licensed built version. Given the state of things it's not impossible that a Turkey, Arab state or America with a 130mm next generation tank will not come across a T14 somewhere in the future.

 >>/38522/
triplex acies was more suitable for roman conditions then the phalanx

 >>/38891/
Ay:  >>/38886/

 >>/38888/
> But Rheinmetal doesn't just sell to Germany, they have gotten a leg up on the competition again and so most next generation western tanks are probably going to end up with their 130mm or a licensed built version.
You're right I haven't thought about the other side. Not just Armata can be sold.

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 >>/38955/
Noice. Here's the whole book, it seems the English translation and the original Latin is written in parallel.
What he wrote about the eating habits coincides our discussion about grains. However Caesar is only one source, he came in contact with only those who were on his borders, he had limited insight into the everyday life of the hinterlands. I'm curious what archaeology says about it. Ancient Germanics weren't farmers mostly?

Good documentary about the evolution of the roman army

https://youtube.com/watch?v=jdz7QNDwFzY

 >>/38958/
His book(s) was probably propaganda same with tacitus.

Alot of celtic and germanic tribes were nomads.

 >>/38982/
I heard it's a tendency that antique writers works about barbarians are a critique of their own society in disguise. The barbarians are just rhetorical tools.
Ofc it doesn't mean the whole thing is bs, if unrelated source says similar it can be used as supporting material.

 >>/38958/
 >>/38958/
> ancient germanics
they were mostly sedentary herders afaik.

 >>/38981/
> feared by all
> not just by enemies
> but by their own emperors
They fucked over some emperors, that's for sure.

 >>/38993/
Hmm.

 >>/38990/
Romans were notorious propagandists. Ceasar enslaved and killed millions of people in gaul alone. Whilst calling others barbarians.

 >>/38993/
They moved around alot. Europe back then looked very different from today. Most of germany was covered in forest for example.

 >>/39014/
When would you have time to chat on the IRC?

 >>/39013/
millions are very big number in those times though. afaik by the time caesar's death rome had around 5 million inhabitants.

so even killing&enslaving 1 million people alone, is like x10 holocoust or holodomor tier. it's like flattening(?) entire gaul.

 >>/39015/
Im out camping so this weekend? If it works for you

 >>/39017/
As many as a million people (probably 1 in 5 of the Gauls) died, another million were enslaved,[24] 300 clans were subjugated and 800 cities were destroyed during the Gallic Wars.[25] The entire population of the city of Avaricum (Bourges) (40,000 in all) were slaughtered.[26] Before Julius Caesar's campaign against the Helvetii (present-day Switzerland), the Helvetians had numbered 263,000, but afterwards only 100,000 remained, most of whom Caesar took as slaves.[27] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul#Conquest_by_Rome

wiki is not the best source. I would think its a higher number. Fuck ceasar. And fuck rome.

 >>/39022/
I'm on the IRC right now.

 >>/39022/
If qchat doesn't work, try this:
https://b.clients.kiwiirc.com/

Here's one about the development of Monkeydonian phalanx. Randomly showed in my face by the youtube algorithm. 
https://youtube.com/watch?v=OdlKvZIHgMY

I'm afraid this thread will slide off the catalog once I create the one I'm planning to so I'm bumping it and two other ones (which means the dijon mustard thread will die instead if any of the bottom threads slide off).