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No. 59935 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59933/
But I am trying to get better and fitter, not die of malnourishment

Anyway, I am a bit progressing
> not drinking flavoured sparkling water anymore
> switching from wheat products to wholegrain
> eating breakfast (mostly just yogurth with some musli)
> eating some proteion powder with yogurth
> eating more ham than before
only thing i cant get rid of cheese
i love cheese so much it's unreal
No. 59937 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59935/
This is all good but you need to eat more vegetables. Also cured meat is not amazing. Cheese is GREAT though, but please buy good ones. 
At the end of the day, meds were right about food: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet
No. 59939 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59934/
Yes it is true, adding some animal products like low fat dairy, fish and poultry is probably not bad for your health, but undoubtedly so for the environment. In the end it is just easier to get all the nutrients you need from plant-based options.
 >>/59935/
You will not die of malnourishment bert. But what you are doing is good, save for the ham thing (red meat is not good for you) and cheese (eating less sat fat would be good for your heart health)
No. 59940 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59939/
> it's easier to reach your macros when you have less options. 
This argument always baffles me. Also I'd be curious to see where you get your b12. I understand this can be good for people going from full shitty red meat with process food to actually eating vegetables, but fish and poultry are basically unbeatable when it comes to protein. 
Also talking about environment I'd like to see your "local" diet as a finn in winter
No. 59945 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59940/
B12 you get from a supplement pill, everything else you get from plants. I find it strange that in general vegan diets are talked about as needing "careful planning" to meet adequate micro- and macronutrients, while similar discourse is never aimed at omnivorous diets despite most omnivores failing to meet the recommended daily amounts of fibre, vitamin E and potassium among other micros.
>  I understand this can be good for people going from full shitty red meat with process food to actually eating vegetables, but fish and poultry are basically unbeatable when it comes to protein
This has been studied quite frequently in recent years, and despite broscientists preaching about "inferior plant protein", outcome studies show that there is no difference in outcomes for muscle building between vegans and meat eaters when the total amount of protein is similar. E.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33599941/ Moreover, there is much data that replacing animal protein with plant-based alternatives is very good for reducing mortality: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32658243/ The effect is pretty shocking: "Replacement of 3% energy from animal protein with plant protein was inversely associated with overall mortality (risk decreased 10% in both men and women) and cardiovascular disease mortality (11% lower risk in men and 12% lower risk in women). In particular, the lower overall mortality was attributable primarily to substitution of plant protein for egg protein (24% lower risk in men and 21% lower risk in women) and red meat protein (13% lower risk in men and 15% lower risk in women)." It's very easy to get 1-1.5g of protein from plant sources simply by eating lots of lentils, beans, tofu and grains.
> Also talking about environment I'd like to see your "local" diet as a finn in winter
I made no claim whatsoever that I would eat a "local" diet. While not irrelevant, the environmental impact of where the veg is produced is lesser than eating meat, even when shipped from the other side of the world. Moreover, cattle/pigs/chicken also eat imported grains&soy which could have simply been eaten by humans.
 >>/59942/
Heh, the emissions are inconsequential, especially since almost all of the electricity here comes from either nuclear or renewables.
No. 59946 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59945/
> Moreover, there is much data that replacing animal protein with plant-based alternatives is very good for reducing mortality
> observational study from the US
This cannot be serious, you're basically doing liberal vs conservative life expectancy.
No. 59947 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59946/
Yes, I and the researchers are perfectly serious. Do you think that you know of some magical confounding variable that would invalidate the results that the best biostatisticians did not come up with? The results were robust between different subgroups and with various different control variables.
No. 59951 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59947/
Yes I would argue that doing study about food in the US is completely meaningless for European people, even more so some observational study where social background and origin has massive correlation. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12001975/, here is a study in UK that shows no correlation. There are others and the results seem to be the same.
No. 59953 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59951/
"Completely meaningless" is pretty strong. Social background and origin are at least partly controlled by control variables.
The study you posted is not as nuanced as it simply compares group mortality and does not analyse the foods themself. In any case, I do not know how it is in France, but most everywhere in the world the national nutritional guidelines advice eating very little meat, especially red meat, limiting saturated fat intake to >10% energy intake and emphasizing healthy vegetable oils rich in PUFAs, eating only low fat dairy in moderation, and eating a very plant based diet in general. Probably the biggest thing is simply eating more vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds and abstaining from red meat and animal fats in general. That's probably where most of the gains come from. But for planetary health, I don't think there is any argument for the current meat-based food culture, it is simply unsustainable.
No. 59958 [Preview] [Reply]
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 >>/59953/
Also to reiterate with these vegan studies is that people in western countries are vegan for a reason and it's often motivated by health concerns, which makes any observational study very hard to read.

And yes, in general people eat too much of everything except not enough vegetables which I'm not disputing. Still think that any claim that a vegan diet is better than a mediteranean diet is wrong.


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