/kc/ - Krautchan

Highest Serious Discussion Per Post on Endchan


New Reply on thread #39794
X
Max 20 files0 B total
[New Reply]

[Index] [Catalog] [Banners] [Logs]
Posting mode: Reply [Return]


 >>/40634/
Ottoman usually couldnt fied 100.000 men thats exaggeration. Anatolia was depopulated and logisticsl nightmare. I never understood how people believe low populated nomads suddenly found breeding hack and fields 100.000 once every battle.

It gets funnier when fighting habsburgs and hungarian we field 60.000-80.000 men but to conquer bumfuck nowhere in balkan we field 120.000 men. Yeah totally believe able.
 >>/40639/
Well they were not really nomadic by this point now where they? Nor was Anatolia completely void of inhabitants before they arrived. I don't think it was that depopulated later on either.

Although, nomads actually do field large armies in proportion to their populations anyway, because a nomadic army is basically just a tribe on the move.
 >>/40644/
The fertile lands around the yellow river and the other rivers in that area could support large populations and those large populations gradually subjugated the others. Most of China is actually pretty barren so the Chinese empires just expanded into these areas as well. They could never really get that far northwards though. After a while they managed to subjugate the south which is also a fairly populous region.

 >>/40647/
Sure but it's applicable to nomads in General.

...It's not wrong that is what they are.
 >>/40659/
It's really wrong tho.
I'll return to this in length but just read up on the Mongol conquest of the Rus'. Or the Hungarian campaigns to Western Europe and Byzantium (I think you can find an uninformative Wiki article searching "Hungarian invasions", but it will more than nothing).
But let me ask you: how do you imagine can make war with your mom, wife, kids, and parents/grandparents on your back with all your earthy posessions under your armpit? You can't.
Also let me remind you steppe people served as mercenaries in all the wars of the people living just over their borderlands (Chinese, Iranians, Byzantines, HRE just for a couple of examples) since the age of Scythians. These were organized units of soldiers, and not a tribe of civilians fighting out of necessity.
Yes, I also did read such an opinion what you wrote expressed by an (Anglo) historian, it's the most idiotic thing since one of them a prof at an illustrious uni was able to say that the Huns did not know the wheel...
 >>/40660/
Mongol campaigns are actually a good example of what I am talking about. Of course they don't fight with their mum on their back but I would assume you are aware of baggage trains and such. Not every person that is attached to an army is present on the battlefield, even European armies often brought their families or other followers with them. A mongol army was a tribe on the move, the family went with the army taking their goats and everything else they had and then setting up their Ger at the end of the days march and letting their horses and such graze. Which was part of the reason Mongol armies actually were strategically slower that many other armies, but once they were near the enemy the actual fighting components of the army would break of and do the actual fighting.

> Also let me remind you steppe people served as mercenaries in all the wars of the people living just over their borderlands (Chinese, Iranians, Byzantines, HRE just for a couple of examples) since the age of Scythians. These were organized units of soldiers, and not a tribe of civilians fighting out of necessity.

Well mercenary units are different and may not always follow the same pattern. Although their were nomadic groups that did bring their entire families along with them to serve other nations.
 >>/40665/
It still is but it's just a bit different. Chinese culture originated in the area that Beijing is now, in the north(Beijing means northern Capital). That's where the ancient Chinese dynasties and ancient Chinese history in general originated. Much of southern China used to be occupied by Viets until the Han dynasty invaded, even then there was still a bit of a divide and most often the capital was still somewhere in the north(even Nanjing is still not really in the south even though Nanjing means southern Capital). Even to this day the south speak Cantonese whereas the north speak mandarin. The south was histrionically poorer as well(the Beiyang army actually had to lower the height requirement for southern soldiers due to them being smaller on average) but maybe that is not true now as much of the wealth and business of China is now located in southern cities.
thumbnail of The Taktika of Leo VI.pdf
thumbnail of The Taktika of Leo VI.pdf
The... pdf
(40.06 MB, 0x0)
 >>/40661/
> even European armies
> camp followers
And this is the source of your confusion (and some Anglo historians'). The warfare of the steppes isn't what was in Europe, that get some thugs, have a couple miles stroll and beat up your neighbour's peasants.
I'm not sure when I'll reply next, tomorrow is national holiday and free, but will spend some quality time with family, so not sure how much time I have to it, and this is also pretty long topic.
But here's a primary source which might need to be introduced. Search "Turks" a couple of times. That's how Leo (and/or his neger who supposedly wrote the book) called Hungarians. First you get sporadic hits, then the book spends a section on us through several paragraphs.
 >>/40680/
> The warfare of the steppes isn't what was in Europe, that get some thugs, have a couple miles stroll and beat up your neighbour's peasants.

If anything wouldn't that only go against your own argument? You don't need huge numbers of camp followers to 'get some thugs, have a couple miles stroll and beat up your neighbours peasants'. Also highly ironic that you even say such a things as that is far more applicable to nomadic warfare, that is the whole objective behind most of their campaigns, they head out, loot the country side, butcher the people and then demand tribute before heading home again.
 >>/40685/
> If anything wouldn't that only go against your own argument? 
Nope. European campaigns are literally what I wrote. Check 100 years of war for example (or any other wars). Their chief modus operandi was this.
> highly ironic
Not one bit.
> far more applicable to nomadic warfare
> loot the country side
You mean the poor ass peasants of medieval Europe? Their own lords did the same with them.
When steppe people moved their troops to foreigners lands they did that to follow the principle Sun Tzu also put to paper (and you can find it in his book): you don't feed your own army (which makes you poorer), take the food from the enemy.
And from my own quote:
> thugs
I wanted to incorporate this into the post(s) where I reply in earnest but.
The armies of steppe people rarely were ad hoc scraped thugs, like the medieval levy was. Learning horse archery in itself an art of a lifetime. I know a dude who does this for two decades now, I mean learning, he still not arrived to a point where he could call himself a horse archer. Talents like Kassai are rare, and even Kassai is a hack compared to what they were like. And then comes what matter the most - since they grew up on horseback with a bow in hands - they also had to learn how to fight in formations, stealing horses from the neighbour isn't comparable experience. They recruited the more talented and gave them training, they held mock battles regularly, and went fighting real ones according to the politics of the gens, tribe, tribal alliance or the khagan/khan/shan-yu himself. The warrior "class" served as followers of the heads of the social structure, bodyguards but also border guards. The states (they were real states with bureaucracy) of the steppe people kept a wide depopulated ring around their lands where they kept no settlements, but patrols who also used those lands as pastures (this is why their land toiling neighbours often did not know about their villages and towns).
Sima Qian gives a nice example of the training when he tells us that Mao-tun/Modu recruited ten thousand (= a tumen/tömény) men and trained them to follow all of his commands as they were one, to shoot their arrows where he shoots without a question. The story also tells more, many implications there, two for example: the discipline and obedience they demanded from the soldiers, and a hint how they directed fire with special arrowheads made to whistle during flight (it is confirmed from elsewhere). They trained them for maneuvers, and triggered their execution with signals. You cannot do this with part-time/ad hoc soldiers During the Wars of Roses after the old generation of Duke Richard the 3rd - who fought in the 100 years war - died out, they did not know how to conduct warfare properly, they were blundering greenhorns. Look it up..
Part of the so called Hungarian invasions one campaign rises above the others. They crossed the Alps, crossed the Po, crossed the Alps, crossed the Rhone, crossed the Pyrenees, beat the Moors, crossed the Pyrenees, crossed the Rhone, crossed the Rhine, and returned home along the Danube. They bargained diplomatic deals, fought some battles, many skirmishes, plundered towns and villages. The did this with 15 thousand men, and 50-100 thousands of horses. It was an organized campaign which makes Hannibal a clueless beginner. I leave you the homework to look it up, feel free to loan books from libraries and such, it can be done via the internet from far away institutions too.
 >>/40685/
> camp followers
The armies of the steppe people did not have camp followers. They would have slow the going down (just how their families would have if they were with them on campaigns). The "train" was the spare horses who served as fresh saddle horses, arrow haulers (they brought massive amount of arrows, there's data how much the Parthians used at Carrhae, another homework for you to find it), loot haulers, and occasionally if need be, walking foodsource. During battles they left behind comparatively few men who could herd the whole thing. A stationary camp with families would have been extremely vulnerable even to a small amount of enemy horsemen (enemy steppe people) and would have distracted larger amount of warriors to guard them, probably in vain.
 >>/40686/
> Nope. 
Yes, it would, you don't need camp followers to fight some peasants a few miles away.

> European campaigns are literally what I wrote. Check 100 years of war for example (or any other wars). Their chief modus operandi was this.

You are aware that you can't stroll to France from England and that it's also more than just a couple of miles away right?

> You mean the poor ass peasants of medieval Europe? Their own lords did the same with them.

I'm not even going to humour this.

> When steppe people moved their troops to foreigners lands they did that to follow the principle Sun Tzu also put to paper (and you can find it in his book): you don't feed your own army (which makes you poorer), take the food from the enemy.

Maybe the fact has escaped you but for the principal to make sense you have to actually be fighting a war, these nomads were not peacefully passing through some other land to graze their horses. They were invading places for pillage and tribute in the first place.

> The armies of steppe people rarely were ad hoc scraped thugs, like the medieval levy was.

Medieval levies were on the same level as your average nomad tribesman, most tribesman just raise livestock and hunt, practising when they can, most peasant levies just farm and practice when they can as well, the difference being that most levies had a minor role or never fought to begin with, they were primarily there to defend but as I said, nomadic armies were tribes on the move, so more of the average folk participated. Both peoples however have professionals, you mentioned the hundred years war before, you are aware that basically the entire army on both sides in most battles was not made up of levies but professionals right? Look at any of the famous battles and who do you actually see participating for the most part? Knights, Men at arms, Longbowman and mercenaries. Sure the French had levies but they didn't actually contribute all that much(well urban levy did in sieges). It takes a while to learn to shoot from horseback sure but then it takes a while to shoot a proper longbow as well and knights also trained from a very young age. Yes these tribesman had a good understanding of formations and movements due to the fact they often held large scale hunts and other exercises that honed this and again these only goes to support my point about nomadic armies being whole tribes, it was just a matter of what the particular tribe was doing at the time, whether it was migrating across the steppes holding a few groups hunts and other exercises or weather it was on a campaign.

 >>/40687/

> The armies of the steppe people did not have camp followers. 

Yes they did, as a I keep saying, there armies were whole tribes and everything that entails.

> They would have slow the going down (just how their families would have if they were with them on campaigns).

And it did, as I said.

> The "train" was the spare horses who served as fresh saddle horses, arrow haulers (they brought massive amount of arrows, there's data how much the Parthians used at Carrhae, another homework for you to find it), loot haulers, and occasionally if need be, walking foodsource. During battles they left behind comparatively few men who could herd the whole thing. 

Well they had all of that as that was all part of the tribe that was coming with them.

> A stationary camp with families would have been extremely vulnerable even to a small amount of enemy horsemen (enemy steppe people) and would have distracted larger amount of warriors to guard them, probably in vain.

All logistics and supply trains are vulnerable but usually they stay well behind in the case of an actual battle and being a nomadic army of horseman it really isn't the most taxing or difficult thing to protect. They aren't in a shortage or horseman to act as scouts and locate enemy movements and they are also quite able to react to any movements they do come across.
 >>/40686/
 >>/40680/
Fuck you are good at this.

 >>/40640/
Same case for every zealot religion. Ironically every religion had its golden age when it was not taken literally. From islamic golden age to rennessaince. I never understood the appeal of going back to roots (which is literally salafism, salaf means predecessor) since people who takes religion literally already exist.. in africa and other shitholes. 

If you have beef with modern culture (which I do) creating or recreating another cleric class is not way to go. When these people have moral authority to declare you "heretic" usually they will be immoral themselves and instill fear to honest folk. 

I can say this to "social sciences" club and SJWs in general. I can rant more but feeling lazy at this point.
 >>/40686/
They grew up with riding horses, its different. Industrial society as a whole is completely different from what people where 200 years ago. The old guard in napoleons army would have chewed and spit out any "elite" military today. 

Not just physiology, but in worldview, in how they saw the world, what mattered. Today everything is about money and utalitarianism, it wasnt that cut and dry back then.
 >>/40695/
Islamic Golden Age was literally just the leftovers of the scientific thought of the empires and kingdoms that Islam conquered. Once all the great thinkers and institutions of those years died, the age ended because it could not produce great thinkers of its own.

The thing about Islam is that it is a religion that demands absolute conviction. You cannot half-ass it like Christianity because it doesn't leave much room for alternate interpretation. Even the verses extolling the virtues of knowledge are offset by the "nothing can go against the word of God" ones.

I tried to see what other problems lead to Islamic countries inevitably being somewhat backwards than their contemporaries but they are all negligible or stem from Islam in the first place. Ultimately, I think there are fundamental flaws in their philosophy that cannot be surmounted.
>  >>/40695/ 
Islamic Golden Age was literally just the leftovers of the scientific thought of the empires and kingdoms that Islam conquered
Can be said about any empire, regardless what you say is wrong. 

>  Once all the great thinkers and institutions of those years died, the age ended because it could not produce great thinkers of its own.
It died because of Turco-mongols and reqonquista.

> The thing about Islam is that it is a religion that demands absolute conviction
Correct, same case about christianity and judaism if you read their holy book. That is the reason why religious people cant into free think and science because at best they have to intepret old knowledge according to their beliefs, see neo platonism in dark ages. Even today there are islamic scholars doing that, needless to say such behaviour never improves only hinders the science and free thinking, since when you criticise their intepretation you also criticise religion.. I assume you acknowledge where this is going. 
Only people who dont take their religion unliterally really created milestones. 

If you think great islamic thinkers were more islamic than they were thinkerers you are dead wrong. Entire Mutalize thought revolved around rationalism how islamic law cannot handle vast empire anymore. So in a sense Islam was not naturally secularized in long process rather there was entire alternative form of Islam which dead nowadays. It's not hard to assume none of the people are convicted believers, either identify as muslims for safety or they were part of "not true islam" gang.

>  You cannot half-ass it like Christianity
Hundred years of dark ages happened, if you lived around tht time you wouldnt able to say it. Yet zealots who perished the antique greco-roman heritage lost influence and newly mobilised secular classes gained power and so christianity changed.  Hypathia and so many others got purged and killed for this reason, for feeble minded take their slave cult too seriously.

> I tried to see what other problems lead to Islamic countries inevitably being somewhat backwards than their contemporaries
Pick another religion take it literally, you will get the same result I promise you. And there is nothing inevitable, history showed exceptional people can completely change history. Even solely this will disprove your theory about why particular group will always go shit.
 >>/40353/
> which led to the universities, which led to scientific thought.
Scientific thought was already established in antiquity by ancient greeks as they are the first one in the world how world come to existence and such with non religious explanation. That's how natural sciences occurred and medieval universities until rennessaince was mostly about theology which does not uses scientific methods at all.

So supposed universities leading scientific thought is simply wrong. Such theological "universities" also existed in islamic era not to mention there were secularized "madrasas" with all about science and philosophy and religion was kept at minimum. House of wisdom is older than oldest universit in europe and mind you those universities and modern ones one thing in common, it's the name itself.
I give this a bump, it seems it slipped to the second page, but maybe peeps wanna discuss this further.
Not sure when I get to the warfare of steppe people. I'm sorry for that.
thumbnail of spurdo_pasha.jpg
thumbnail of spurdo_pasha.jpg
spurdo_pasha jpg
(41.22 KB, 615x326)
 >>/40880/
Cease your butthurt passive aggresive cuck.

 >>/40875/
I dont get why would you think that, not learning about the past would raise serious questions. As for erdoğan he cant be taught in history class because it's not really history yet. 

 >>/40878/
Similarity is not neccesary at all, it's just you need to know about your nations history and history of the lands you occuppied now, history of other Türks all taught here altough with mediocre quality. If we didnt swarm entire country with "universities" and had only a  few but quality highschools that are dedicated to raise students to attend universities it would be better. 

Many Turks are /pol/ tier when it comes to history for a reason, half assed knowledge about subjects and collective confidence about being fully enlightened due to constant echo chambers.
thumbnail of emp.png
thumbnail of emp.png
emp png
(19.09 KB, 710x577)
 >>/40883/
> I dont get why would you think that, 
Because I don't live there bernd! I wouldn't really know what happens there since I'm an outsider. Nice rare spede btw fam Also, if you made that Spede, you missed a little bit of color on the left side of the head

 >>/40880/
> Both are full of T*rks.
I liek Turkeys budy. They're good at the Serious Discussions™, and they also really good to eat
 >>/40962/
Israel has demographics problem. Palestinians would outbirth them if not for the orthodox Jews, who breed like rabbits. Not sure about the policies of Israel, but they are aware of this threat, and they are struggle with this since the foundation of the Jewish state. For their luck they got Jewish immigrants from the ex-commie states after 1990, but it is unlikely they'll get more from anywhere in the future, so they have to face the problem locally.
Getting more lands would mean getting more goyim which would tip the current balance of ethnicities. Besides more Muslims (since they would gain more Muslims) means security threat, they would gain more such people whom they want to keep out, more fundamentalists and Jihadists.
While there is the dream of Greater Israel, the reality is that it's a pipe dream.
 >>/40962/
It was for american imperialism, while assad family is not the greatest thing in the world, its hardly justifiable to stir shit up in their land. 

Before AKP we had several "offers" to intervene in syria, some offers were from muslim brotherhood and some were from Türkmens themselves, needless to say we didn't intervene, too much balkanization and destablized borders would eventually affect us, but current party needs to divert the attention to foreign politics and make neo ottomanist fools happy. That's why erdo insisting so much in syrian conflict. 

You can also listen what the hungarian say, israel by nature is extremely revisionist state, their "promised lands" includes some parts of southern Turkey, so I would beware, but right now it's just a far future thing.
 >>/41005/
> Israel has demographics problem. Palestinians would outbirth them if not for the orthodox Jews, who breed like rabbits.

Considering that Arab demographic pool is unlimited (because not only local Palestinians matter, but neighbors), Israel would lose demographic race even if they'll be on par with Arabs, just because Middle East is filled with Arabs anyway.

So, only solution for them are deportations, so they slowly trying to drive Palestinians away. And this works, at least for now.

But compared to other countries, Israel has pretty healthy demographics even without orthodoxes (i.e. non-declining).

Post(s) action:


Moderation Help
Scope:
Duration: Days

Ban Type:


New Reply on thread #39794
Max 20 files0 B total