/agp/ - Autogynephilia

 >>/29/
> what are the differences and parallels between agp and mef (masochistic emasculation fetish)?
MEF can sometimes be as varied as AGP, but from what I've seen no MEF actually wants to be a woman or even romanticises womanhood, it's chiefly a sexual masochism thing.
If you go further back into the boomer sissy era, they were all feminizing themselves into girls instead of slutty women in order to turn up the humiliation angle, hence "sissy".
AGP with a LOT of shame might resemble MEF though. MEF is a trauma response.
> is agp just a 'matured' form of emasculation fetish that affects shy sensitive boys?
I would say no because that implies we all start out MEF, which isn't the case for a lot of us.
> many times sissies start out as hyper sexual giga sluts then slowly mellow out into more regular female aesthetics
Yeah, this is the AGP with a lot of shame slowly shedding it into pure AGP.
> is viewing tg, feminization porn a symptom of gender dysphoria or is gender dysphoria a symptom of emasculation fetish?
Uh, I think they can cause each other to be honest. But they can also exist independently of each other.

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 >>/30/
> no MEF actually wants to be a woman or even romanticises womanhood, it's chiefly a sexual masochism thing

is masochism even this simple? could there be such a thing as symbolic masochism that doesn't appear masochistic in the regular sense?

 >>/39/
what do you mean, anon?
By regular sense do you mean physical pain?
Isn't that obvious?

 >>/41/
i mean whatever is considered mef regularly: partial or contrived attempt at femininity for humiliation, degradation etc
then there is the idea that even a complete attempt or 'identification' with femininity is masochistic in nature

 >>/42/
Oh, I think I see what you mean now.
That is near the point where you start to leave MEF and are something else entirely. MEF has two parts that are inseperable, it is masochism through emasculation. You need to be male and to desire  masculinity.
If you identify with being a woman, feminine, or desire/enjoy those things, you don't have that MEF nature.
Femininity and identification with femininity should then only exist in the context of subjecting yourself to something you DON'T want, i.e. you remain at your core a man. You DON'T want to BE that.

This also leads to a funny situation where MEFs complain about trans women and AGPs invading their spaces, because MEF is confused with other types of masochism or confused with agp arousal.

So to answer your question, yes, but it's a fine line.

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 >>/45/
but you are born male and since you desire femininity it is emasculating and since you like it it's masochistic 
'identify as female', 'feel like a woman' are ofc cultural phrases but what happens when a new agp first witnesses a situation where he experiences agp related arousal, hes reminded of his childhood experience of being compared to a girl because of his shy, sensitive nature
and within this situation there is an imagery which causes him to wonder "what if this was me" and he has an experience of emasculation and since this emasculation is resonant with him he feels a sense of arousal

 >>/46/
It's only emasculating if you value being a masculine man and abhor being feminine or a woman; emasculation is a deprivation of your own strength that is rooted in masculinity. MEFs often fantasize about being either weakened boys or even babies for this reason, and not women. 
And without this emasculation, it cannot be masochistic. There is no humiliation involved.

If you are describing yourself, you sound like one of those borderline cases I mentioned. If you choose to realize this path then once your shame for your own femininity goes away and you fully accept yourself, your masochism may go away or take in a different form (women are more often masochists than men  iirc). Because at the root of masochism is self-doubt, self-loathing, low self-esteem, etc. Masochism is self-harm to deal with those negative feelings.

 >>/48/
all men value being masculine it's rooted in men's evolutionary development 
the shame from femininity or the distress is always present even when it doesn't consciously appear to be distressful because the emasculation is felt even when there is no obvious humiliation involved 
the root of masochism is rooted in trauma when as a young male your gender role was thoroughly ridiculed 
emasculation resonates with this trauma which is experienced as masochistic sexual arousal

 >>/50/
you sound very familiar
if you are who I think you are, you're hopelessly deluded, stop projecting this autistic nonsense onto agps
even other MEFs hate when you try to conflate us, it should tell you something
but too bad you're too autistic to understand criticism, so go ahead and repeat the same retarded arguments for another 10 years and get shouted down by people again and again...

 >>/51/
kek i'm just playing "devil's" advocate
i think wxhluyp's theory nicely explains the causal chain that causes agp and it nicely complements blanchard 
not sure what blanchard even say about the origin of agp
erotic target location error? it's kinda weak 
i haven't heard a sound criticism of him so far
> even other MEFs hate 

probably because they see the idea of trauma as negative and their impression of it is formed by hollywood depictions as wxhluyp says 
they want to think of their fetish as casual and just a kink

 >>/52/
oh, well you did a damn good impression of him
his whole "you must feel this way because I feel this way and if you disagree, it's because you dOn'T uNdErStAnD" schtick is annoying
I honestly wasted so much time debating him until I saw that he's been doing the same conversations for over a decade, with same phrases like "I cAn bE cOnSiDeReD aN eXPerT"
Expert masturbator maybe...
> i think wxhluyp's theory nicely explains the causal chain that causes agp
Eh, I don't have any trauma, was never bullied or ridiculed for my love for femininity, so it's not based in shame or anything
Why do you think that it does? 
And wxhlyup thinks AGP doesn't exist, his words is that no agp is actually aroused by being a woman, which is straight up denial and autistic delusion on his part...He denies blanchard.
That's actually my main problem with him, I don't care about the origins, it's that he doesn't understand what agp is at all.
> erotic target location error? it's kinda weak
I haven't been following it too closely but there's a paper out recently that found sone ETLEs in other fetishes
> i haven't heard a sound criticism of him so far
like when he starts to talk about unconcious desires and feelings you can't feel, that's just making stuff up to justify your conclusions
You might as well say I have a female soul at that point
> they want to think of their fetish as casual and just a kink
I'm talking about the regulars on his forum complaining that there are too many sissies there who aren't MEF and don't understand it, hurting the discussion there

 >>/53/
idk how he exactly defines trauma but theres definitely an inherent shame in being compared to something feminine 
dont think he denies agp feeling arousal from the thought of imagining themselves as women except theres always a sense of underlying maleness and emasculation even when it's not depicted as such 
he agrees with blanchard on the hsts agp classification but he renames agp to mef because of masochistic emasculation being a cause rather than ETLE
> ETLEs in other fetishes

which ones? 
i think his theory is not compatible with a female essence or soul  
but there are sexual imprints which could be hereditary or formed during childhood which have an interplay with the trauma
i think it's mainstream trans theories that believe in a trans essence inner girl and what not 
only time he talks about elusive stuff is when he's talking about abstract masochism but some trannies do like sissy content and it's helpful in understanding how agp transitioners loose arousal from agp thoughts when late into transition because they loose the sense of underlying maleness 
normally it's explained as loss of libido 
there are lot of other psychological phenomenon where the underlying cause is shrouded by some other outer feelings

 >>/54/
> theres definitely an inherent shame in being compared to something feminine
there's nothing inherently shameful about femininity, perhaps what you mean to say is that males can be shamed for being feminine, which is true, but it's not always the case in every situation
nor does the mere comparison to femininity cause trauma, you would have to be deeply insecure to be bothered by that
> don't think he denies agp...except there's always a sense of underlying maleness and emasculation even when it's not depicted as such
that's denial right there, agps imagine themselves as being women, not being men
he makes assumptions like those freely showing a deep misunderstanding of what agp actually is
> which ones?
Search up "Elaborating and Testing Erotic Target Identity Inversion Theory in Three Paraphilic Samples", they investigate attraction to animals, amputation, and fat people
> i think his theory is not compatible with a female essence or soul
What I'm saying is that like the female soul conclusion he is trying to make stuff up to justify his own conclusion
He believes MEF to be the solution to everything, so then he works backward to reinterpret anything as being rooted in masochistic emasculation
Of course if you judge everything to be masochistic, you affirm your own opinions, it's faulty circular logic
> only time he talks about elusive stuff...
it's him trying to justify the existence of something that's not there, another term for this is called "bullshitting"
> some trannies do like sissy content
Yeah, SOME. Not all. There can maybe be some examples of sissy content which are MEF in nature, but not all of us are sissies in the first place
> loose arousal from agp thoughts when late into transition because they loose the sense of underlying maleness
Depends on the tranny, some do some don't. 
In the cases of those who do, why is it so hard to believe that they are attracted to female features? AGPs are gynephilic => woman loving.
If a gay man finds his own masculine body arousing, is it because of an underlying femaleness?? Or is it because he's attracted to men??
> normally it's explained as loss of libido
really depends, some never lose their libido, and for others it may change in intensities, i.e. becoming more attracted to other people instead of yourself
> underlying cause is shrouded by some other feeling
it doesn't help to say that when he shrouds attraction to women with MEF theory

I even asked him what his favorite fantasies were and what he gave me was all sissy content, I think the fundamental errors he makes probably stems from him likely being homosexual or just wholly not attracted to women

another oversight too is that MEF doesn't explain why agps want to become women
in fact becoming one or leaving maleness in general would be completely counter to the fetish, which is why MEFs on his forum can't relate to sissies, MEFs want to be emasculated men in their fantasies, not women

 >>/55/
men have an evolutionary need to be perceived as masculine and they're more imaginative so the emasculation can often be self inflicted 
(side point: any society that takes up equality of genders most often ends emasculating men rather than actually empowering women to level the field)
i think when wxhluyp says 'underlying maleness' he's referring to an organism's subconcious awareness of what it is and to keep being what it is just like a living organism has an inherent drive to keep being alive 
when an agp is thoroughly convinced of wanting to become a woman that is a very advanced stage of his self identification with the idea 
i guess you want to know what part does attraction to women or a man's regular gynephilic tendency play in all this, that i don't know yet 
one of the things wxhluyp says about modern sissies is that they're burdened with the idea of self identity as a result of 'tiktokification' of sissy sphere which has blurred the distinction between sexual desire and identity 
here he asks us to learn from the past ie boomer sissies when mef was present in it's raw distilled form

 >>/56/
> men have an evolutionary need to be perceived as masculine
is this stuff wxhlyup actually says to people? lol
He sounds like a "redpill alpha male" blogger who does this fetish theorizing in his freetime
"evolutionary need" is just a narrative that that evopsych/evobio bloggers give to explain shit they see in the wild, it is in no way true and is easily debunked by counter examples
1. the mere existence of feminine men 2. shy sensitive boys are obviously unmasculine naturally (rather than fem in most cases) 3. strong CDs and agps, who often NEED to crossdress or transition to relieve their gender dysphoria, etc

normal men on the other hand expend zero effort to be masculine of course, unlike the other groups mentioned where it's more of a painful performance

> any society that takes up equality of genders...emasculating men rather than empowering women...
I can agree with this, but counterpoint: these societies are more suitable for agps since there is less of a need to be masculine

> 'underlying maleness' ... organism's subconcious awareness of what it is ... keep being what it is ... inherent drive to keep being alive
this sounds like an attempt to ape at a "soul" or "inner nature" without using "woo-woo" spiritual terms
the issue is that agps and the other aforementioned groups have a different sense of self than normal men, so that self might include being fem or becoming a woman
it also discounts to what degree these traits are learned, it's not all nature or nurture, organism are adaptive

> when an agp is thoroughly convinced of wanting to become a woman...
which often happens in childhood, except the oppressive nature of society keeps them from doing it until they completely break down in their late 30s and 40s
luckily we're transitioning younger and younger, so agps will be more integrated in womanhood for longer and avoid the deleterious mental effects of lifelong repression

> a man's regular gynephilic tendency play in all this
it's literally the explanation with the fewest assumptions
i would imagine all men have the ability to be agp but their desire for actual women is far greater, and their masculinity is far greater which would eliminate any identification with femininity
whereas agps tend to be more introverted and exist inbetween masculine and feminine, so it's easier to develop agp and trans

an alternative explanation is ETLE is true and agp is actually a "woman fetish" or "femininity fetish". iirc, agps and trans chasers are much more attracted to cis women than non-agp men, as well as much more attracted to traps, trans women, feminine men, etc.
then with ETLE, they are also attracted to becoming these things as well...

> one of the things wxhulyp says about modern sissies is that they're burdened with the idea of self identity as a result of 'tiktokification' of sissy sphere which has blurred the distinction between sexual desire and identity
> here he asks us to learn from the past ie boomer sissies when mef was present in it's raw distilled form
yeah, I fucking knew it, that guy is just an out of touch boomer, he knows nothing about people today

"burdened with self identity"? What is it a crime for men to not force themselves to be masculine anymore and pursue even being a woman through transitioning? modern sissies ARE NOT boomer sissies, and even boomer sissies, other than him of course, will tell you they are fundamentally different

fuck "mef in it's raw distilled form"
mef in its raw distilled form is dudes wearing baby clothes in pink dresses, sucking a pacifer watching his wife and daughter get RAPED by BIG BLACK COCKS, and ENJOYING it

fuck that, I just want to be a woman and have a normal sex life with women or even men if I had SRS

what do you consider yourself? mef sissy boomer? modern sissy? crossdresser? agp? trans? what is YOUR opinion?