/ratanon/ - Rationalists Anonymous

Remember when /ratanon/ was good?


New Reply on thread #6414
X
Max 20 files0 B total
[New Reply]

[Index] [Catalog] [Banners] [Logs]
Posting mode: Reply [Return]


Can someone explain the phenomenon of smart men _still_ falling for the polyamory trap?

- Geoffrey Miller, one of top evolutionary psychologists: vid rel

- Jacob F: https://putanumonit.com/2019/04/30/the-state-of-affairs/

- Scott: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/17/polyamory-is-not-polygyny/ 


1. Sexual strategies of men and women are inherently competitive. Monogamy is the best known and tested way to find a compromise.

2. Encouraging monogamy reduces male violence, jealousy and STI rates. It also boosts the net romantic and sexual satisfaction of the entire population across many life stages, creating a stable environment for raising children and acknowledging that physical intimacy, romantic love, engagement and life arrangements are deeply interconnected.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2016.1216153
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0735-2751.00110

3. Modern polyamory is basically the feminist disguise for open polyandry, increasing women's sexual access to the most attractive men and turning all the nice guys into stereotypical beta providers who get lots of drama and little to no sex or emotional involvement (the latter one should be important for asexuals as well). 

My best guess is that some dudes are brainwashed by ideology, some can't leave their special ones who rejected exclusivity at some point, and some would rather be in a faux relationship rather than suffer as permanent singles. In all cases, I would find it extremely humiliating. Polyamory is basically a backward practice and crony capitalism of relationships - good luck if it works for 10% of the population, but keep it far away from the majority.

Why do the rational, evo-aware bros with lots of money, status, and passable-to-good looks do this to themselves? ;__;
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418825.2016.1216153
> HLM regression models indicate that men who transition to a monogamous, or less competitive, mode of sexual behavior (fewer partners since last wave), reduce their risk for violence. The same results were not replicated for females.
That version of non-monogamy is pretty different from the standard polyamorous deal. It seems to be more about churn than about multiple simultaneous partners. The properties don't obviously transfer.
> jealousy
From what I've heard, that's a major thing that keeps some people away from polyamory. People who engage in it already have lower than typical sexual jealousy and are conscious of it.
> STI rates
This is orders of magnitude less of a problem than in the past, assuming everyone gets tested regularly. If this was an important reason not to do polyamory in the past then that makes polyamory correspondingly less problematic today.

Different societal conditions mean that different tradeoffs become viable. If theory predicts that something is irrational but people do it anyway, always consider that maybe it's the theory that's wrong.

And don't forget that there's no reason for evolution to align with morality, and that people are not fitness maximizers but adaptation executors. The most "evo-aware" thing to do wouldn't be to maximize sexual success but to become a sperm donor and stop caring.

Pretty much just:
> Two fifths of a gf is better than nogf.
> I live in the Bay Area, if I start insisting on monogamy people will think I'm secretly TradCath/NRx/watching Varg's videos.
> If I can't come up with a logical argument explaining why it's bad if my gf sleeps with other men then there's no reason for her not to sleep with other men. "It makes me feel bad" is not a good argument because I can just brainwash polyhack myself into no longer feeling bad about it. Knowing the evolutionary psychology derived reasons why jealousy exists just makes me more willing to be poly, since those reasons are not valid anymore, at least in my case. Claiming that it's bad/unwise/unworkable to go against the preferences set by thousands if not millions of years of evolution is to fall for the naturalistic fallacy.
> She's going to cheat anyway, at least like this I can maintain a little bit of dignity.


thumbnail of ss.jpg
thumbnail of ss.jpg
ss jpg
(70.71 KB, 1078x1096)
 >>/6417/

The current ideological push strongly reinforces the competitive mode of male sexual behavior - the normalization of mainstream non-monogamy is accompanied with the domination of online dating (driven by lookism), as well as bullying low-status men under the guise of opposing privilege or toxicity. The public tends to think that incels are a tiny fraction of ugly and violent basement-dwellers, whereas the inceldom is on the rapid rise and will set a tone for the social affairs (pic rel).

>  People who engage in it already have lower than typical sexual jealousy and are conscious of it.

Yes, but then there's gaslighting ("your emotions - your problem") and destabilizing the monogamish social contract for the jealous majority.

>  This is orders of magnitude less of a problem than in the past, assuming everyone gets tested regularly.

Many poly people are low-inhibition/less conscientious and don't test regularly, then there are good reasons to be STI-averse in the age of antibiotic resistance. All in all, more STIs are one of many downsides.

>  And don't forget that there's no reason for evolution to align with morality, and that people are not fitness maximizers but adaptation executors.

I mention evolutionary psychology as a discipline shedding light on the complexity of human behavior. My consensus morality is the prosperous present and future of humanity, and this includes ensuring that as many people as possible meet their fundamental needs related to closeness, intimacy and security in a thriving, stable society.

 >>/6418/

My guess is quite similar to your hypothesis. At the same time, all these smart men 1) were brave enough to confront way more inflammatory progressive standpoints for the greater good and pay their price for intellectual integrity, 2) being interesting, rich and good-looking, they should easily find attractive and faithful spouses. Many of them don't live in the Bay Area, and even in the Bay Area you can occasionally meet secular but sort-of-traditional women.

 >>/6419/

It's not about Scott specifically, but about the sum of polyamory's downsides and promoting it as a future of relationships for many people.

 >>/6420/
> 2) being interesting, rich and good-looking, they should easily find attractive and faithful spouses. Many of them don't live in the Bay Area, and even in the Bay Area you can occasionally meet secular but sort-of-traditional women.
The third reason still applies to them. They also might have difficulty meeting or connecting with women who are not part of their social sphere, so polyamory is either preferable to a normie gf or just the path of least resistance. Scott, for example, likely has pretty high social status among rationalists and adjacents (perhaps also among other shrinks who've heard of his blog), with only "well, he's a doctor, that has to count for something" going for him outside of that group. 

Also, just like with the free love thing back in the sixties, some men are just libertines so they don't mind open relationships if they are fairly successful at attracting women.

 >>/6421/

They could always date introverted and kind STEM graduates - these girls meet the basic Less Wrong Compatibility Criteria without all the weirdness, ideological burden and rigged demographics. 

Scott once mentioned getting along well with the aspie-poly-non-binary types. As he intends to take the risk of getting married, starting a family and homeschooling a child, it would be reasonable to take a break from the ingroup that didn't bring him desirable outcomes in last years and partially overlaps with social circles of his bullies, by default hostile towards socially awkward techbros. Scott has a strong, universally attractive selling point - he's a tall, white doctor. The other guys have different lucrative careers and more masculine facial features.

Polyamory indeed looks like a bad personal choice in their circumstances, and as an even worse recommendation to the broader public.



thumbnail of Annotation 2019-06-23 022658.png
thumbnail of Annotation 2019-06-23 022658.png
Annotation... png
(278.79 KB, 1033x1175)
I'm afraid to say we don't really need to investigate why exactly people agree to be cucked and how they use their intelligence to rationalize it. Complete deference to female preferences and opinions is the default mode among males in Blue circles; the specific form of rationalized relationship is downstream. In fact, one can argue that the whole project of identarianism is about building the ordered graph of such deferential relationships among all possible groups.

 >>/6429/

> Edit: for the Incels coming out of the woodwork: the reason you're alone is not because you're too ugly on the outside. It's because you're a shit human being and you need to invest that time and energy in bettering yourself if you want to have a more fulfilling life.

I mean, this person is not wrong. Most incels aren't alone simply because they are ugly. However, the same person would also hate (claim to hate) the lifestyle changes that could objectively compensate for ugliness.


 >>/6432/

Physical appearance, high status or ruthless dominance are necessary and sufficient to successfully attract women. Most incels (or rather unloved guys, as sex can be easily purchased) are alone because they lack two or three of these characteristics. Everything that falls under the personality umbrella is neither necessary nor sufficient; you may think about it as a nice addition in the already committed relationships, see:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5519305/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/per.2087
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9c55/a8cae3c8a5d238002a261fec643f767d1126.pdf
http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1002/per.2087
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19558447
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2654465

SSC was already aware in 2014:

[I will have to use virginity statistics as a proxy for the harder-to-measure romancelessness statistics, but these are bad enough. In high school each extra IQ point above average increases chances of male virginity by about 3%. 35% of MIT grad students have never had sex, compared to only 20% of average nineteen year old men. Compared with virgins, men with more sexual experience are likely to drink more alcohol, attend church less, and have a criminal history. A Dr. Beaver (nominative determinism again!) was able to predict number of sexual partners pretty well using a scale with such delightful items as “have you been in a gang”, “have you used a weapon in a fight”, et cetera. An analysis of the psychometric Big Five consistently find that high levels of disagreeableness predict high sexual success in both men and women.

If you’re smart, don’t drink much, stay out of fights, display a friendly personality, and have no criminal history – then you are the population most at risk of being miserable and alone. “At risk” doesn’t mean “for sure”, any more than every single smoker gets lung cancer and every single nonsmoker lives to a ripe old age – but your odds get worse. In other words, everything that “nice guys” complain of is pretty darned accurate. But that shouldn’t be too hard to guess…"]

I wish I could paint a more humane picture, but denying the real state of things would be dishonest and even more harmful.

>  Everything that falls under the personality umbrella is neither necessary nor sufficient

What do you mean? Physical apperance, status and dominance seem influenced by personality.

You need exercise to get fit but you need the right "personality" to endure or even better, enjoy it.

 >>/6434/

I was suggesting that ugly and low-status men could stop being incels just by self-modifying to show dominance and lifting. I really, really doubt that the status of an already dominant man makes a big difference.


No amount of lifting will compensate for less attractive facial features or being short and ethnic (South or East Asian). If the guy from the HuffPost video wasn't so handsome and used valid evolutionary explanations instead of terms communicating adherence to the Blue circles (racial bias, microagressions), he would be instantly silenced as an entitled misogynist.

Most importantly, self-esteem is derived from positive social inputs and having options: you can't really fool your brain - especially if it leans towards being nice and introverted - if you didn't score well at the genetic and economic lottery of life. Especially if the dominant cultural narrative prioritizes women over men in relationships, and if men can be always shamed through the accusations of privilege and toxic masculinity.


 >>/6439/

> No amount of lifting will compensate for less attractive facial features or being short and ethnic

Anecdotally it makes a difference even if it won't fully compensate for genetic handicaps in appearance. The main benefits are going to be psychological anyway.

> you can't really fool your brain - especially if it leans towards being nice and introverted - if you didn't score well at the genetic and economic lottery of life

The meta-level lesson of PUA is that you can fake it till you make it. At least some can. The 27% of men of  >>/6420/ aren't so hopelessly unfit that a woman wouldn't willingly have sex with them even once in their lifetime. We are not at that level of dysgenics yet. The harm done to nice and introverted men by their culture is easy to underestimate when you are so focused on the genes. There is no way the same nice and introverted men brought up 100 years ago and dropped in our world in secret wouldn't do a whole lot better on the love front. Men who were unfortunately brought up in our time can reap some of the same benefits by means of changing themselves. You are only really hopeless if you can't or you won't actually change your mind. (Obviously none of this is a replacement for culturally enforced monogamy and I am not claiming it to be.)

 >>/6440/

Maybe realizing this is the filter.

 >>/6432/
The issue I take with this guy is that he 1) frames an obvious case of female privilege aka pussy pass as victimhood and 2) doesn't see the slightest bit of unfairness in the fact that a godawful offensive chick can get laid no problem, but "incels" need to "improve their personality" to achieve the same. He advises incels to do exactly what the experiment has shown to be unnecessary for the chick, and acts in a condescending manner as if he's proven his case twice over, even though in reality he has confirmed their assertions. It's blatant doublethink.


thumbnail of g.jpg
thumbnail of g.jpg
g jpg
(164.5 KB, 800x1200)
The entire discussion about the war on male agency is interesting, but we're diverging from the original question: why do quality men from rationalist circles, fully aware of the intersexual dynamics and capable of raising politically incorrect points, fall for the poly(andric) trap and advocate for it?

(Quality Poly Men: if you're reading this, please be aware that I deeply respect you both as individuals and intellectuals, I'm just really curious about the genuine/implicit motivations involved in this particular context, and your public coverage of the topic makes me feel entitled to discuss it)

The best explanation so far is: "0.4 gf + some humiliation associated with the vibe of male submissiveness/cuckoldry > no gf, plus even if we were a mono couple, she would quickly cheat on me or branch swing on the current dating market, so I need to get rid of jealousy and mate guarding anyway". It still doesn't explain the public advocacy of polyamory or picking a better relationship model (committed monogamy or nonformalized polygyny).

How about the similarities with the case of Neil Strauss? After his crazy PUA years and recovering from the sex addiction, he embraced the "Purple Pill" perspective, explored polyamory, married a model and had a child. Guess who filed for divorce in 2018?


 >>/6446/

Blue Pill: male looks/status/dominance unimportant, internal locus of control (PC, denialist view)

Purple Pill: male looks/status/dominance somehow important, internal locus of control (socially acceptable view)

Red Pill: male looks/status/dominance very important, internal locus of control

Black Pill: male looks/status/dominance very important, external locus of control (Red Pill but fatalistic)



thumbnail of Assburger.jpg
thumbnail of Assburger.jpg
Assburger jpg
(78.41 KB, 442x768)
 >>/6433/
>  totally not about the female supremacy and treating men instrumentally
Having just watched the video, it was about how people unconsciously condition others through their reactions, to some extent training them to act in some specific way. By this she means extremely common reactions, such as being saddened, angered (both being forms of punishment), pleased (positive reinforcement), etc. by the other persons' actions.
She specifically points out that psychopaths are far more likely to be aware of the different forms of manipulation they engage in, while non-psychopaths don't and just do all this unknowingly. The talk is named like that because women are more effective at this than men, but doesn't present it as a "how to" and even encourages knowing about this matter in order to limit how other people might end up "training you" in negative ways, as an example she mentions codependency as the result of being trained into being dependent, by being rewarded when relying on the "trainer" and punished when acting independently.
Very good talk, would recommend (and am recommending) to anybody interested in psychology and interpersonal relations, specially to fellow spergy types that need all the help they can get with regards to that latter subject.

 >>/6462/

>  Very good talk, would recommend (and am recommending) to anybody interested in psychology and interpersonal relations, specially to fellow spergy types that need all the help they can get with regards to that latter subject.

Main takeaway: avoid relationships with people diminishing the role of invested fathers and deliberately practicing all sorts of subtle emotional manipulation in relationships, and because women are better at it than men, avoid relationship models with power dynamics extremely tilted in favor of women… oh wait.

 >>/6466/
Oh no, not at all. In the contrary, she even says that a man who notices that a woman is successfully training them in such a manner should appreciate her because she has a valuable skill she could later use on other people for the benefit of the couple and their children, and on the children while raising them.


 >>/6470/
Being an unconscious conditioner is very noticeable and unattractive in a woman as well as simply pathetic. I'd rather my wife be a sheeple and my children inherit autistic and moderate dark triad traits from me. Then they can consciously learn to condition people as they seek power and not do it by instinct like some animal.

When watching the video from  >>/6433/ I got this one on the "Up next" sidebar.  I think the part between 46:05 and 48:38 explains very clearly a certain attitude common among rationalists (specially the effective altruism types) that also leads to things such as acceptance of polyamory.
The whole talk is about the evolutionary origin of morality, but the main purpose of the talk is to support the idea that you could reason your way into a superior morality, one that is more logically sound and not as limited as the naturally evolved one. In the part I mentioned (46:05 to 48:38) she says that increased intelligence (from better nutrition, healthcare, whatever else causes the Flynn effect) leads to a broader morality that isn't focused only on the ingroup. But the effect of this Moral Flynn Effect is so far limited, and intelligence might not continue to increase, so people are still restricted to a great extent by the naturally evolved form of morality. So, we need to find the ideal, rationally determined morality that would arise after overcoming the primitive, evolved morality. She continues to say that evolutionary psychologists are stereotyped as wanting to maintain the status quo, of using evolutionary psychology to justify 1950s sex roles and the like, but that this is not true and that she's specifically interested in evo-psych because she seeks to surpass it.
That last bit is very obviously connected to the subject of this thread, but the previous part also helps explain the views of the people being discussed ITT. Much like Diana says one should not be restricted by the naturally evolved morality, but should seek to develop a better, more logical morality, the same principle would apply to other things, such as personal preferences. The same logic that leads some to spend 90% of their income on mosquito nets or to carefully weigh whether it's more important to give up beef or chicken (you know, since cows feel like more morally worthy animals, but it takes killing a whole lot of chickens to get as many meals as you can get from a single cow (Diana says save the chickens)) also leads people to determine that wanting exclusivity from their romantic partners is a backwards, no longer justified desire that must be overcome.

tl;dr: Spear the transhumanists, primitivism now.

 >>/6472/
I don't think people who are good at training others as described in that video would necessarily be predators, they are just those who successfully convince others that their (the trainers') needs and wants are important. That said, I found it funny that she claimed women who are good at this should be preferred, since it presumes that their wants will be entirely or at least mostly aligned with the well-being of their husbands and children, which might not be the case. The predator types you mention being the most obvious example.

 >>/6473/
> Being an unconscious conditioner is very noticeable and unattractive in a woman as well as simply pathetic.
Most people don't notice, and the whole conditioning others thing seems to work amazingly well for most women.
> I'd rather my wife be a sheeple
Sheeple do all this unconscious conditioning just fine though. It seems that self-awareness is what would limit it.
> my children inherit autistic and moderate dark triad traits from me. Then they can consciously learn to condition people
I hear autists are exceptional at manipulating people, or even at dealing with people in general. Good luck with your plan.


 >>/6473/

IMHO it works differently. Unconscious manipulation involves things as playing with your hair (women) or taking power postures (men) in the presence of an attractive mate, some light teasing, ambiguity and escalation of interest. This can be a harmless and pleasant flirting game. Conscious attempts at conditioning people are, on the other hand, frequently toxic, exploitative, and praying on people's vulnerabilities. 

It may be better to stay single forever rather than become a disposable piece of the predominantly polyandrous dual mating scheme.

 >>/6474/

Rationalists or ea types are (being pushed?) into non-monogamy because, compared to the general population, they have/want less children and more instant gratification, have an over-representation of nerdy nice guys, and overlap with communities of strong progressive/kinky leanings. Current progressives frequently advocate for the gynocentric social order and bashing male agency for its own sake. Ironically, polyamory is further from the broader, rationally determined morality than (serial) monogamy, which should be considered a historically recent development limiting the harmful effects of irresponsibly following evolutionary instincts. I bet that monogamy, compared to non-monogamous alternatives, reduces more net suffering through the "fair" distribution of love, sex, agency and engagement, reducing violence, STD rates, and creating stable conditions for raising the next generations.

I would also mention a bunch of ridiculous poly dramas in LW circles, but these might be better kept in private… Anyway, don't end up like Jerry, rational dudes.

 >>/6481/
> commenters on that video getting mad about the woman saying "well, it's sad that my husband feels lonely, but his feelings are not my responsibility"
> her boyfriend shows up and claims that to think otherwise would be a sign of codependency
People twisting definitions and rules-lawyering their way out of any blame drive me up the wall. Specially when the terms they misuse are psychology/psychiatry related.

> Actually, she would be mentally ill if she felt responsible for how her demanding to have an open relationship has had a very negative impact on her husband's well-being.

thumbnail of IFH7DQy.jpg
thumbnail of IFH7DQy.jpg
IFH7DQy jpg
(54.41 KB, 561x560)
BTW, Geoffrey and Diana are now engaged.

https://putanumonit.com/2018/06/20/miller-3-polyamory-mating/

>  'Sexual jealousy is too strong to overcome. And then I met Diana, and she said: “If you want to be with me, you better overcome it”'.

>  'And then I eventually thought of a System 2 utilitarian version of it. I can convince myself that that dude’s getting more pleasure from my girlfriend than I am suffering from knowing that they’re together. So it’s a micro version of Effective Altruism.'

.

thumbnail of EY.jpg
thumbnail of EY.jpg
EY jpg
(107.41 KB, 609x781)
Yikes! If only you could ignore more than 100 independent black pill studies, become better allies and notice that it's actually the beta nice guys that have the most success with women… 

Altruism > looks + money, the future is poly!

 >>/6634/
> psychology study using self reported data
Why does anybody ever take this stuff seriously? I know it's difficult and at times unethical to get data in other ways, but this usually is like searching for your keys under a streetlight.
The only non-self reported data in that study was from asking the participants in the second study whether they would be willing to donate part of the $100 (leaf) they could potentially get from a draw. It doesn't say how many $100 prizes were given to the 524 participants in that experiment (the first study had three draws for 297 participants, the second one only mentions "a draw", possibly only one draw for the 524 participants?), but in any case the only actual, verified data in the whole study comes from "Would you be willing to give away a fraction of a prize that you are almost certainly not going to win anyway?"

 >>/6634/
Worth noting that the author of the study in question adds the other result: it seems more attractive males cooperate significantly more in prisoner's dilemma. Appearance, I surmise, doesn't change conditional on cooperation. From this I gather that altruism in self-reports is proxy for abundance and successful, easy life guaranteed by good looks, hence perception of "cheapness" to help out another in a general case. 

https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1147186444500426752

 >>/6641/
> abundance and successful, easy life guaranteed by good looks
Are you saying that good looks by themselves grant a heterosexual man a successful, easy life? This is implausible. What is much more likely is that good looks and success are caused by the same factors like low genetic load, good diet in early childhood, etc. Without these factors good looks are only a faked signal: useful, but not nearly as useful as what it is supposed to indicate.


Post(s) action:


Moderation Help
Scope:
Duration: Days

Ban Type:


39 replies | 7 file
New Reply on thread #6414
Max 20 files0 B total