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A year passed and again this day commemorates the foundation of Hungary, this is 1018th birthday. We celebrate this national holiday with listening to politicians mixing irrelevant daily politics into historical events in the morning and watching fireworks in the evening. Budapesterners can witness the procession of state founder Saint Stephen's Holy Dexter. Also all the local communities have their own little celebrations.
This is the third time I make this thread, and I won't post much, maybe I'll post something about what happened today - if anything interesting - later.

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pic #1 After 80 years the first time we have flags with crosses on the Parliament Building
pic #2 János Áder, President of Hungary, is talking boring stuff and unrelated daily politics mixed in historical references as predicted
pic #3 fresh officers of the Hungarian Defence Forces take their vows

 >>/18586/
I googled and found this saint was from 10th century. And he was a king. 
We have Chinese saints but they were recent. They were never famous to general Chinese . There were no king saint either. 
But to be a king saint you seem to have to convert the whole people



 >>/18595/
Thank you, mountain Jew! I won't forget you are responsible for the Habsburgs...

 >>/18593/
 >>/18594/
His canonization along with his son's happened about 45 years after his death by another king, Ladislaus I, who was also canonized a century later. While Christianity was introduced to Hungarians earlier Saint Stephen made Catholicism state religion and he was the one who created the framework of the Church in Hungary (among other things).
During the ages 20th of August had different feasts/holidays. In the middle ages it was a religious feast as Stephen was canonized on this day. In the interwar era in the 20th century became national holiday for the first time. During the communism it was the holiday of the (Stalinist) Constitution and People's Republic. After '89-90 it returned back to the national holiday of the Hungarian statehood.
This Hungarian statehood is counted from the coronation of Stephen in 1000/1001. The actual date is very uncertain so that's why his date of canonization was picked instead. It's not even sure it was coronation, it might been a different type anointing. The point is he become rex from dux what he was since 997.





While it isn't 20th August yet, I bump this so I won't have to repost it. Maybe I'll prepare something for it. Hmm, I also should prepare a more beefy post in the near future about some topic. I did fairly long time ago.

Why the pisa tower cross? By the way one of my close friend has been to budapest, he says you'd love it for 2 days but hate it after 2 weeks. People are close minded and always stick to their close friend group.


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 >>/25075/
> Why the pisa tower cross?
Which version do you wanna hear?
Nevermind, I'll write what I can.

So.
We have no idea why does it stand askew, but many theories were created by both historians and the people. If one observes the Crown it will be apparent that not just the cross strange but the crosspiece and the rim are also seems to be deformed which can lead to the easy conclusion it was hit with large force from above.
Here are some ideas:
1. In 1301 the House of Árpád went extinct on the male line and three candidate from female line wanted the throne to himself. One of them, the Bavarian Otto acquired the Crown, and came into the country in 1305. He brought it with him:
 a. The put it in a big wooden flask but during the road it fell off the horse at one point and they had to search for it. The drop damaged the Crown.
 b. They put it in a small barrel but it was too small and when they put the lid on it pushed down the Crown.
 This version is based on the story of the chronicle and the two version comes from the two possible translation of a Latin word. The chronicle doesn't say however that the Crown was harmed, so it is a speculation. Also this is one of the versions what usually was cited as a reason.
2. In 1849 the War of Independence was defeated and the governor, Kossuth, fled to Turkey. He had the Crown but didn't want to bring it with him to abroad. So they buried it at Orsova. I think it was underground for four years. Somehow it was damaged either when it was buried or when recovered. This is also a popular version.
3. In 1638 during the coronation of queen Mária Anna (first wife of king Ferdinand III.) they got the wrong key for the reinforced chest they guard the Crown in. They had to break this chest and had to use large force and they dun goofed. (Btw, during Habsburg times the queens were crowned with another crown, the Holy Crown was only used to touch their shoulders.) This version is fairly recent one.
4. This isn't the original cross, but a replacement which was mounted in the 16th century.
 a. A version says that in 1551 queen Izabella break the original one down and gave it to his son, king János II (aka János Zsigmond), who wore it in his neck on a chain. They surrendered it to king Rudolf I. but it's further fate is unkown. The Habsburgs made a new one instead.
5. There was no cross originally, it was mounted later (for example in the 16th century).
6. It stands askew on purpose, this is how it was planned and made. - This version is preferred by some pseudo-scientific theoreticians.

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 >>/25094/
The next few are the products of folklore, however some details of the above might be similarly made up by the people.
7. In 1385 at the coronation of Károly II it fell from the pillow as a bad omen. He ruled for only two months.
8. When the angels brought it down they dropped it accidentally.
9. When István I (aka Saint Stephen) fought with the pagan rebel Vata, he slashed at the king with his sword and hit the cross.
10. When the House of Árpád went extinct it bent.
11. "Back then" three seas washed our shores but now the country is torn apart, this made the cross bend.
12. It bent due the election of Mátyás I.
 a. The nobility chose the new king by throwing the crown up into the air and onto however's head it fell, he became the new king. During this process the crown was damaged.
 b. Mátyás and a peasant tilled a field together when they heard the news of the election of a new king. The news also said who dines on an iron table him will be the new king. So Mátyás turned the plow sideways and ate his meal at it as if he was sitting at a table. His mate just laughed at him and said Mátyás will be king if his whip sprouted. So Mátyás shoved his whip into the ground and it sprouted. Then came two angels with the Crown to put it on his head but Mátyás was startled by them and hit toward them with the whip, then the dropped the Crown. This story is related to #8, but also has great many versions and not just in Hungarian folklore, Moravians, Northern Hungarians, Croats and even Slovenes has a version or two of it. One Czech myth connects this story to Saint Stephen.

I will close this with some facts:
- By the end of the 18th century it stood askew, one Austrian official made a note of it.
- A Hungarian writer, M.D. who wrote a book about the Crown about the same time also made a note of this.
- 19th century depictions show it with bent cross
- On older depictions the cross stands straight - I wouldn't consider this great importance, since older depictions aren't realistic, great many things were drawn very differently.
- It moves too, has a little wobble in it.
- I'm not sure how factual this data is, but I found it to be presented in such way: the screw what holds the cross wasn't driven into it straight with the axis, but with an angle to the axis.
- It is not for small hedas.
- It was used only during coronation. It wasn't for wearing it casually, the kings had their own crowns for that. When it needed to be used, a crown guard, who's job was especially this, took out the Crown, inspected it, if it was necessary he ordered repairs, then after the coronation he had to inspect it again, and order repairs if it was necessary, then put away into it's place.

 >>/25095/
> turulos_hun_korona.jpeg) 
that's tuğrul, which is pronounced like tuurul. common symbol for us, even the seljuks used it.  

 >>/25094/
read all of it, first one seems the most believable one. thank you for explaining, I guess you like to delve into your history don't you?




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 >>/25096/
For steppe people all kinds of animals were parts of their mythology since their beliefs included totemic elements. Our Turul is the mythological progenitor of the House of Árpád - maybe will write more about this later. It's a specific predatory bird, the kerecsensólyom (Falco cherrug). Another important animal is deer (also in a totemist way), species not specified precisely.
Btw the eagle/falcon on that Hunnic crown is a bobblehead. Or so I heard.
> I guess you like to delve into your history don't you?
I already wrote about the Crown's cross I believe (or maybe I just wanted to? it is always asked why is it askew), I just re-skimmed the "sources" I gathered back then and drafted a new text.
> first one seems the most believable one
When I read about the third that also seemed plausible however it's not clear from the articles what are the hard facts and what is speculation.
Frankly, the supporting evidence for all the possibilities I listed are very weak.

 >>/25098/
That depiction is as good as any, frankly more realistic than most. Tho the bend is too much in that cross, it's just about 23°, similar to Earth's axis tilt so it stands askew because the Crown represents the Earth in the universe.

 >>/25103/
Will reply in depth later, but basically yes.

 >>/25104/
Again, later will watch it. Last week I saw an article, they are searching for the exact place of the clash and what are the "results" (i.e. latest speculations).


 >>/25105/
> all kinds of animals
I don't know any pig, cow, ant, rats being symbol. Only exception is tungus people which are literally settled mongols. Considering the fact nomads cant herd pigs, it makes sense for them. Hence of their name, (tungus=domuz=pig). 

Deer might be more of your uralic element, as closest thing we had is goat. We even had a state known for goat symbol such as karakeçililer (dark goats) it's probably not their official name but they known as like that because they carved goat statues and had dark goats in their flag. 

 >>/25104/
I wish süleyman wasnt so braindead. We could let hungarians do their own thing and focus on seas and portugese threat but he greatly disregarded it despite the warnings. I feel bad for Turks (which I include tatars as well) and hungies couldnt get along . One of the reasons why I hate religions generally, it actually divides people more than it unifies them.



 >>/25103/
So crowns are part of the royal representation.
That's it. I thought it will be longer, but this is enough.
The Hungarian Holy Crown was a coronation crown, it was for anointing the new king. It is kinda special snowflake among these because it is represented more than a tool, it represented the country and the will of the "noble nation". Also probably the House of Árpád especially the Habsburgs (with the exception of Josef II) put emphasis on the fact that they were crowned by the Holy Crown, during the feast of the coronation the Crown was placed next to the king so the participants could see that they were crowned by it and they are the continuation of the Árpáds (on the female line).
A doctrine was formed around the Holy Crown during the centuries, mostly a customary law, tho it partially(?) was written down in the 16th century in the Tripartitum, which supported with some legal considerations both for the king and the nobles, clergy in the matters of the country. For example no new law drafted by the new king was considered legal and in effect until he was crowned with the Crown and in certain circumstances while Hungarian kingship was inherited, the new king was elected first by the estates, the "noble nation", and only after this could be crowned, sometimes coronations  weren't legal according to the doctrine so they had to be repeated, some of our kings were only elected kings, because proper coronation weren't possible for them. They new laws had to be confirmed after the coronation.

 >>/25118/
I meant "a number of animal species" when I wrote all kind. You are right, other animals are excluded, the pig isn't one tho. Great many steppe people herded pigs (they even had poultry for that matter) - the huge amount of pig bones among the archaeological findings proves that - and this has cultural impact too, for example a 10th Pecheneg chief was called Tonuzoba (domuz + aba).
It is very simplistic view to think steppe people were horse herders who roamed the steppes constantly. Or maybe I should call it false. They even had constant settlements with artisans.

 >>/25152/
> steppe people
I only referred nomads. And khazars and pechenegs were half nomads (dig info about that) 

> It is very simplistic view to think steppe people were horse herders who roamed the steppes constantly
no. I never said they only herd horses and never even impled they constantly roam. They roam according to climate, weather and stuff. They have words for summer roams and winter roams for a reason. The ones who have constant settlements were half nomads or settlers like tungus-manchus and I agree they were quite developed for their full nomad types.


 >>/25166/
Khazars are a Turkic nation. Most of them arent even jews it's just their ruling dynasty were judaists. The state was full of christians, judaists some muslims and Tengri followers. They werent even that much of a central state, so claiming (not saying you did) all nation is jew is outright stupid.






 >>/25166/
Turkbernd summed it up, but here's my take:
Khazars were a tribe of Turkic steppe people who gained influence over others and founded a state of considerable power on the Pontic steppes. At one point the ruling dynasty and the aristocracy converted to Judaism, about that time quite a few Jews moved there, fleeing from Byzantines.
The conversion might happened so the khagans could stop the foreign influence spreading in their court which originated from both Christian and Muslim sources. It might have been also a show of status: "the emperor might have Christianity and the caliph Islam, but I, the khagan, am the same, I have my own religion too".
One khagan wrote a letter to a rabbi in Hispania, it is one important source about this matter. Maybe it is available somewhere on the nets.
The general population - which consisted several folks, among them Hungarians for a while (tho the exact nature of the relations between the Magyar tribes and the Khazar Khaganate is unsure at best) - followed many religions and religious practices, among them only the Jews were Jews.
There are great many speculations about the topic, but the actual available information - just as for great many steppe people - is little.

 >>/25187/
Well, the end of your post could read a little harsh.




 >>/25195/
> cain was the dude who killed his brother to get the birthright I think
Wow, that's some real biblical illiteracy you have there, Sven. Cain likely killed Abel because Abel's sacrifices were more favoured. The entire birthright controversy was with Jacob and Esau.










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 >>/25162/
After over 1488 hours in gimp. There would be some tale for this but in the balance between my level of tiredness and caring enough is tiredness which weighs more right now. But the picture speaks for itself. I hope at least.
Half-nomadism is a half-cocked label for something historians didn't understand back in the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century and now they are just going with it because they got used to the trope.
Add your onions, I'm curious how you see the thing.

 >>/25317/
I don't see how exactly this contradicts with what I said. I already said they nomad around according to seasons and climate. Even today the word yaylak(summer place, usually mountain platos or anywhere with mild climate) and kışlak (kış literally meaning winter, understandably it means winter place) 

As you said historians back then didnt really understand it. As for semi nomads khazars were one afaik and I cant remember which source they even had unique architechture so this confirms, there were (obviously) permanent settlements but I assume people who herd animals still roam around according to climate. 

From my perspective, with time nomads started to become more like semi nomads meainly because:

1)With raids and trade interactions they manage to create 'powerbase's 

2)Migrations being not so profitable due to expanding border of the settlers

I would say interactions with foreign societies is very crucial for any kind of development. Ancient greece became a thing due to constant interactions around mediterranean. Türko-Mongols and ancient greeks(then romans took the flag) were the most open societies when it came to being open towards interactions during the antiquity. Afaik Xiongu even had vases and pottery that comes from hellenic world.





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 >>/25318/
The difference is fundamental between real nomadism and steppe "nomadism". Nomads move with the seasons so they can spend the whole year on the pastures. Two type of movements can secure that:
1. Move along the altitude, crossing climate zones "vertically". Live at the feet of the mountains when snow covers the peaks in winter but the vegetation is lush green down the valleys. Then when summer comes and down below becomes too hot and dry, the pastures in the mountains open up. There is no place like this in the Eurasian steppe zone, or in it's neighbourhood. There are places with snow all the time, but when the cold comes it's fairly the same both up in the heights and down in the lows.
2. Crossing latitudes, passing climate zones "horizontally". When it's too hot they move to the north because the greenery "moves" there, in summer south is too dry. Then winter comes and north freezes over but south turns suitable for their lifestyle. Basically the move between to zones, one with snowy and green phases and another with green and dry phases. Steppe people doesn't do this, they don't have such climates in that area to move with.

Steppe people remain in the same climate zone, the herders (some with families, others without) out in the pastures for three seasons then for winter they move billeting at permanent settlements. They change pastures because the hueg amount of livestock Hungarians at the time of conquest might had even 250 000 horses - plus other grazing livestock, cattle, goats, sheep in inestimable amount depletes an area fast. The viability of these pastures however not depends on altitude or latitude. A considerable part of their society lives on the permanent settlements, even livestock owners who entrust herders to care their stock while they do other stuff. During the three warmer seasons fodder is gathered for the winter, and when the time comes, the herds returns, they butcher the surplus animals and they stay put until spring came.

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 >>/25351/
Now the people's whose stories we know and historians base/based their works had only limited contact with them, they met them as they broke into their territory with many horses, sometimes just with herders, other times war parties (each warrior went with several horses to campaigns - this might be the reason some sources give us inflated data of their numbers). So they only met these guys, so only gained impressions of them.
Looking through the borders into their territory was also useless, since their settlements weren't close to the border, due to their practice of leaving a wide stripe of land unpopulated (maybe because on horseback a neighbouring tribe could pounce them fast and the empty space gave some time to catch them coming) around their domain.
So these neighbouring folks had only seen a little out of them and the idea that they roam around like nomads was born. This was the historians later read in the sources those folks left behind. So they classified the steppe people nomads. Then came archeology and they found all kinds of stuff, and later (some medieval, especially Arabs - what I know of) sources also give some more hint. And this new data didn't fit. So they came up with the idea of half nomadism, and said it's the next level in their development to become sedentary (and feudal - as if that type of sedentism and feudalism would embody some higher quality, but since these were western scientists, motivated by their nationalism and oftentimes even chauvinism, they naturally considered their ancestor's ways superior - sometimes even went as far as calling steppe people gypsies).
But what development? In the Carpathian basin steppe people lived with little pauses from the 7th century BC actually from a little earlier to the 10th century AD or even later if we count the Cumans who were settled among us in the 13th and during these 1500+ years they lived pretty much the same, how I described previously. This land here is absolutely unsuitable for nomadism.

Ofc I acknowledge different steppe folk lived a little differently. Those south, southwest of the Aral built cities, with adobe brick walls, big temples, and irrigation systems in that deserty land. This wasn't the case north of there around the southern slopes of the Ural. For example.

 >>/25351/
> . There is no place like this in the Eurasian steppe zone
Ural mountains, altai mountains, pretty much entire kırgızistan region, tien-shan(tanrı) mountains, they are all well suited for summer.

>  When it's too hot they move to the north because the greenery "moves" there
I get what you mean, but I wish it was that simple. Nomads disliked too much north mainly because too much forest prevents their military tactic efficience and it gets more swampy. But traveling across north or south of river itil(volga) was a thing but again not that common and simplistic.

As for hungarians, hungary was literally wet dream of nomads due to quality dirt of Hungary. It's just requires to being not nomad and settling down. Mainly because smallness of Hungary and in general europe. Your lands being raidable by settlers is a no-no and in vast eurasian steppes infantry core armies couldnt catch up with nomads so it was huge advantage for them. But when the time passes gunpowder gave infantry core armies an edge and increasing urbanism worked against nomads. Having not so competent leaders also shouldnt be underestimated. By the way even today nomads exist in Turkey maybe I mentioned before.

 >>/25355/
> I get what you mean
No. I see you don't.
The Urals - for example - is a bump. There is no time in a year, when in the hills are covered in snow but the their feet is lush green. Also no time in the year when up there is lush green and down the feet is dried out.
I don't think even Altai has that feature. When winter comes, all Inner Asia turns to frozen "hell". Nowhere to go for lush green pastures.
Hungary is horrible to nomadism because when the winter comes there is no place with greenery. Everything is covered in snow. And when it is summer there's no north to go or no mountains to climb for pastures. Also Hungarians lived the same before they arrived here.
Maybe the closest such mountain with the climate is the Kilimanjaro. Err, no, during upper paleolithic, mesolitic, and maybe early neolithic in Mesopotamia nomads lived. I think a Czech, Petr Charvát mentions in his book I can't remember the title.

Nomads follow the vegetation to live the same all year round. Steppe people don't live the same all year round.




 >>/25357/
You say there is no good place to roam in eurasia during winter, but what you say is too tedious in eurasia. So having a good summer place was sufficient as they werent so overly populated.

You don't need lush green fields for 4 seasons to nomad around in eurasia.

 >>/25363/
Because livestyles change, because it's good place to settle down after fucking up their neigbours. Because you may eventually overpopulated and need to settle down. Because as khan you are not in charge of fucking everything and certain tribes decide to migrate. 
Because nomads don't nomad for lulz, it's merely adaptation for their geography and won't likely to insist nomad around a place that is good place to settle  down.

Assuming it wasnt rhetoric of course.

 >>/25361/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians

it gives information where the hungarians came from but not why they choose to leave their nomadic lifestyle in the first place. 

they did some looting in the area but that doesnt justify giving up their culture just like that.


 >>/25364/
> You don't need lush green fields for 4 seasons to nomad around in eurasia.
Nope.
Nomads move where the vegetation is lush, they move "with" the vegetation.
Steppe people sit on the same place while nature changes beneath their asses, therefore steppe people aren't nomads. They don't fit into the definition. Calling them nomads is incorrect.
For nomads, their entire economy is depending upon them being in the same fertile surroundings, no matter if they are hunter-gatherers or herders.
For steppe people only a part of their economy depended on herding - which is in no way nomadic, but extensive pastoralism. Great many in their societies were artisans or did intensive agriculture.
Nomads don't build settlements.
Steppe people had permanent settlements with houses and other facilities. These places partially served for "billeting" the herds. To which they fed fodder (even grain feed!) which was gathered/produced by those who lived there all year round.


 >>/25365/
They didn't have nomadic lifestyle. Let's call it extensive pastoralism for simpleness.
Even after the conquest they lived for a century like the same. The change came with the adoption of Christianity, which also meant the adoption of the western societal structure, which also went hand in hand with the adoption of their economic structure. Both of which are feudalism. In feudalism they don't need large amount of free herders but serfs. This meant the descent of great many Hungarians into servitude - but this again took about 200 years.

 >>/25370/
>  >Steppe people sit on the same place
> No, never said that.
I'm trying to direct your attention to this fact: they don't go after the vegetation, they let winter setting in and they prepare for the winter.
Nomads on the other hand do the exact opposite. Nomads aren't waiting for the winter they move before it sets in. Because none from their society gathers fodder so they can wait out the return of the suitable weather. They move with the suitable weather.



 >>/25372/
They do go after suitable climates I just said you overestimate. It's very tedious thing to find lush green fields in ever season. Your definition implies there was barely any nomads even in present day Mongolia.





 >>/25383/
Frankly I'm cornered meself a little bit. But not too much tho, I will return to this but first, here are some links:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/nomadism
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/nomadism
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/nomadism
The first problem is there doesn't seem to be a concise definition, compactly fitting into a sentence, but more of somewhat lengthy explanations. The second, while what I wrote are all in there on these links, ofc the editors of these articles widened the parameters enough so one could shoehorn steppe folks into this.

Some notes.
The Encyclopedia Britannica mentions they might cultivate crops.
This actually means they sow some seeds in a place which they leave and move to the next place where they also sow seeds, then when they return to the first place they can harvest the crops, sow again and move to the next place to harvest and sow again. Beside their usual economical activities. These aren't field of wheat or whatnot, don't really plow or anything. It's more like helping certain wild edibles to grow more abundantly. Ofc these can be domesticated plants too I believe.
The EJ actually made me realize a third possible way to be nomad. In an area/region, where the weather is fairly the same year round (like Arabia) they can remain in one climate zone. This isn't true the the Eurasian steppe belt, since winter sets in erry tiem.


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Since this shitty weather forces me inside, it's time to do some constructive stuff here.

So let's talk about deers for a minute, as a backturn to this post:  >>/25118/
Curious Turkic symbolism doesn't include deers since it was a fundamental part of the steppe folks art and spiritual culture at least up to the Huns and old Hungarian tradition is one of the links at the end of that chain.
Our word for deer is szarvas which means "horned one", a substitute peripharse instead an actual name to express it's sacral nature sames with wolf, farkas = "the one with tail".
One of our two origin myths includes the deer in it's "allegorical toolset", twice. First as a totemic progenitor: the mother of Hunor and Magor (Magyar) was called Enéh (Turkish: inek) which means female deer, doe, and it is still used in our language as ünő with same meaning. The second instance of the deer - this time a stag - in this story is a magical entity who leads the hunting brothers to west. The deer wears the Sun and the Moon and the stars on his antlers, it might be a transformed shaman or a godlike creature, maybe an allegory of the sky of some sort or our version of Tengri himself - if we had one.

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 >>/25543/
Old Hungarian art also features deer, although not in too great volume since artisans moved to an abstract direction from the steppe's animal style, with great more tendrils, palm leaves, curly plant shapes braided together. There is one peace which grabs exactly the moment of the transition from animal to plant. Maybe will try to find it.
Here are the examples.

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 >>/25544/
And now move to the Scytho-Hunnic era. These are all over on the related parts of Eurasia, as south as Pakistan. Their art features four species I believe, reindeer, elk, fallow and red. They were important to them for some reason. At Pazyryk they buried them masqueraded as deers. Sadly we don't know much of their stories, for some none at all.




 >>/25548/
 >>/25544/
 >>/25543/
Thank you for posting. It seems deers and elks indeed important and sacred to some degree but I wasnt aware of it. 

"Deer cult in Anatolian folk culture is one of the most important values which Turks brought from the Central Asia. Today in Turkey, there are many legends and stories sanctifying deer and deer continues to inspire the modern literature and art. Deer with mother-tree was seen creator Goddess and source of life or ancestor of clan or family in Turkish cosmology. These ancient beliefs have made deer cult important in Turkish culture. In a time with the social and cultural transformations of the Turkish societies of Central Asia, deer lost its importance in belief system and culture. While wolf, horse and raptorials were being identified with political power, sacredness of deer was of secondary importance. However it kept its importance among the lower layers of these societies. After the conver-sion to Islam, it was believed that deer served and/or helped to the saints and people in need. After taking place in religious stories especially being involved in the cult of saints, deer cult consolidated its sacredness in the eyes of public. Societies changed their many beliefs and values after changing their social and cultural structures. Turkish societies also changed but sacredness of deer has been living in the memoirs of the Turkish societies in general. This put deer cult in a specific place in the Turkish culture. These matters about deer cult in Turkish culture are examined from a historical perspective and in terms of comparative method"

Found some pdfs about it but they are Turkish just quoting the abstract passage.

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I wanted to make a little review about the Hungarian crowning mantle not just because it's an amazing piece of artwork but it has some interesting anomalies. So I started to "research" the topic, especially wanted to find a book nowadays used as the standard description of the mantle and it's history - now I see I won't find it online tho -, and I came across an article by the same author where he talks about the other coronation insignias. He says some interesting things about the Crown, some of which might even sound heretical among historians who research the Crown, but it's very compelling what he wrote. But there is one detail which makes it impossible for me to believe...
So I'll return to the Crown for a little because it also has some more interesting details and anomalies, beside the very conspicuous slanty cross on the top.

Not sure when will I finish the whole thing.


Huhh, I actually made quite a progress. Almost done I have to say. But I still don't have the necessary illustrations in their entirety. I'm still undecided to go ahead and post parts today or the whole finished thing tomorrow.

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As I mentioned in this thread ( >>/25137/) the Holy Crown was one important artifact of not only the medieval but modern Hungary too. It wasn't just considered the origin of sovereignty but a legal person in an abstract way too. No wonder it keeps engaged those who are busy solving it's mysteries. And one mystery is the main one: it's origin.
Traditionally it's tied to our first Christian king, Saint Stephen I. It is considered his crown which he was coronated back in 1000 (or 1001) with. As a source from the early 12th century says, he acquired crown and blessing from pope Sylvester II. It doesn't say however that this was The Crown and it even has the implication that there was no crown at all. Since at that time in many cases crowning meant more of anointing with oil and/or girdling with a sword than putting an actual crown on the head. So maybe our Crown never touched Stephen's locks.
So the grand question is who made the Crown and when. Just as many explanations were given as to the problem of the misaligned cross.

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 >>/26890/
If we look into the written sources we gain very little insight. Sadly depictions (paintings, drawings, statues, coins, etc.) aren't helpful either. Then the only source remains the Crown itself.
So researchers took a look at the Crown. It has 19 enamel icons depicting named persons in an obvious dual fashion: on the rim everything is written in Greek but on the cross straps the labels are in Latin. So quickly they "took apart" the crown and said: this is two crowns, a corona graeca and a corona latina as if there were such crown categories anywhere in the world. The two actually can be taken apart without damaging the relic itself, they are riveted together and not soldered.
This however created new problems - liek: without a rim, how the cross straps stood?; it had to have another rim, no?; where is this hypothetical rim?; were the cross straps really an independent crown?; etc. - first and foremost now they had to deal with not one but two crowns' origin, when they were made and by whom?
It is impossible to answer these with any level of certainty in case of the cross straps, because there is no information on it which could lead us to a date, the named figures are the apostles (8) and one image of Christ (Pantokrator). But recently they simplified this by figuring out: it is really possible that the cross straps were made so they can create the Crown in it's current form. It wasn't a previous crown but was an addition to the rim to create a new one out of the rim. For some weird reason they still can't stop calling the straps a "corona" tho.

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 >>/26891/
The lower part however - besides a Christ (Pantokrator), 2 archangels and 4 saints - contains three lay figures at the back who are more or less identifiable. One icon says: geobitzas pistos krales Tourkias; the other kon basileus romaion ot porphurogenntos; the third (which isn't on the surface but above the rim, just as well the Pantokrator in front): ikh mienikho pistos basileus romaiono, duk. The shit historians have to deal with.
Ok, so we have a king (krales) and two emperors (basileos). But who are they? The king is of Turks, Byzantian sources oftentimes called Hungarians Turks, that's no problem. The problem is his name, we know not one Hungarian ruler who was called "Geobitzas". Nada. But with a hussar trick this name can be resolved as Géza whom we had a couple, even the father of Stephen I was called Géza. This name however was misspelled in many forms, Geuso, Duso, Jesse, etc. but never Geobitzas.
The emperor on level with Géza is a purple born one, someone whose name starts with Kon. That would be Konstantios or Constantine, they had a few from the latter, the first one is more conspicuous.
The dude above them, certain Mienikho (on exclusion basis this has to be the name) which name is missing from all the lists of Roman emperors, is interpreted as Michael. There is liek a ton of this name too, but when they forgot how to spell Mikhael is beyond me, it's not even a foreign name as Géza (assuming actual Greek/Byzantine artisans made these enamel plates). This icon gives another clue: duk, 10 out of 10 historians says it's short for Doukas which pinpoints Michael VII from 1067-1078 as the subject of this portrait.
Historians were very happy, they got an exact date and to this date they can match a Géza and a Kon: that's Géza I (1074-1077) and either Constantine X Doukas (1059-1067) or Konstantios Doukas (1060-1078, junior emperor).
Awesome huh?

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 >>/26892/
But the enamel disk of Michael isn't fit into it's place. All the icons have a socket, especially made for the icon but his is bigger than the socket and it got riveted to the crown. Moreover even a dilettant like me can see it's differences in style compared to the other enamel plates. Conclusion: it's not original for this item. No?
How historians deal with this situation? They largely ignore it, they found a plausible explanation and call it a day. Not everyone tho. Ofc those who believe in some alternative origin - it was Attila's crown, or persian made - don't like this explanation; but there are other acknowledged researchers with legit background and published results (like the one whom I mentioned in the post here  >>/26844/) who also see the Michael icon's secondary placement so they reached for other explanations.

 >>/26892/
I actually know the king of Turks thing.

As for christianity I thought you guys were christian about a century earlier.

> a corona graeca and a corona latina
maybe to have some arbitrary claim on both roman empires? ofc one was kys'd already.

Speaking of hungarians have you guys any attemt to convert orthodoxy or any other denomination?

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 >>/26893/
So now the lower crown, the rim, the "graeca" is considered an earlier product which was laying in the emprerors' treasury and at the time of Géza I, they slapped the Michael icon on it - to signal the donator - and sent it as a gift. As a part of a deal.
But this solution leads onto other rocky roads.
Sending a crown to someone meant you were the suzerain over him. Michael VII was barely suzerain over his own bowels not the Hungarian king. Also a suzerian's depiction is more fitting to the place where the Pantokrator is at the front, and not the back! This whole thing however can be sidestepped, since not just men can wear crowns, not exclusively but in the Byzantine court it was customary for women to wear ones. And Géza himself with the deal gained a wife, a Byzantine princess and the crown came with her. She was the one who was gifted with this present. It was a female crown anyway, sp researchers claim.
But it is a huge crown, just look at poor Charles here  >>/25095/ and here  >>/26844/ , even if his heda was small a female's head is small too. The rim without a top would just fall down to her neck. All right - says the researcher, it is exactly how it should be because it was made for the female hairdo and whatever plus headgear was worn beneath it. Now this is the world of pure speculation tho. What fucking kind of hairdo can hold up a kilo metal (2056 gram the whole Crown, let's say the rim is only 1000)? One can keep it on her head but it needs to rest on the head. And what hairdo
And frankly what kind of female crown for princesses can include the Pantokrator right up above the person's brow? The Pantokrator has a very specific palce in iconography, it means the almighty, the ruler, the one who judges. Back then they didn't just used this shit for decoration they used them for their meanings. The Pantokrator's place is where it is know, over the brow of a king. Or maybe it was the crown of an empress originally?
There are depictions of Byzantine female crowns however, somewhat really is similar what the rim should be in itself tho the Holy Crown looks similar how these pictures depict the emperor's crown., and those haircuts...

 >>/26894/
Grand prince Géza, father of Saint Stephen took the cross, the western one, as part of his politics, but he sacrificed to the old gods the same.
The corona graeca and latina expressions are modern inventions. There is an alternative explanation the bilinguality of the Crown: it was used for initiation and certain rites demanded the usage of both languages, like when they ordained a priest, or when they built a temple first they chose the spot then draw a big cross onto the place, then wrote the latin and greek alphabets along the axis' of the cross. I dunno about these claims' reliability.
> have you guys any attemt to convert orthodoxy or any other denomination?
Before the Conquest our forefathers met Cyril and Method, and some might converted to their faith. Also it can be theorized that by the time of Saint Stephen quite a few Hungarian followed the Byzantine rite. Grand prince Géza's brother himself too (who was baptised as Michael).
This question of yours is very interesting since at that time Christianity approached the Schism and maybe Hungary was a place where the two branches struggled for influence.

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 >>/26895/
But let's jump back a few steps. Let's say it's an earlier artifact compared to the addition of the Doukas plate (about 1074), but then the two other icons, of Géza and Constantine/Konstantios are also additions of that time since they lived about then. But it means the socket of theirs weren't made for them, they still could perfectly fit in but not the Doukas icon? And no they cannot be cut to size since this enamel if it's damaged it starts to crumble, this is why the Doukas plate wasn't cut to size either. Their socket also can't be altered more easier (if at all!) than poor Michael's. Moreover all the historians firmly agreed they are original for the crown many even say the Doukas icon is as well tho but that would mean those guys depicted aren't even Géza I. and Constantine X or Konstantios, since they were made when the crown, way before these guys' time.
All right they still can be grand prince Géza (~970-997), father of Stephan I, and Constantine VII (913-959) or VIII (1025-1028) who were really called Purple-borns unlike the other two "Kons" I mentioned above. This solution has two drawbacks. One, why would these two included together? The dates don't match either way. Two, why would a Hungarian ruler's imagery was used on a piece of item which was worn in the Byzantine court (especially if the user was 1. female; 2. empress)? Makes no sense.
But maybe it was sent to prince Géza, but then why would anyone from the Hungarian court order to put Doukas' icon onto it 70-100 years later (or even later anytime)? And who was in the now empty socket covered by Doukas? And why would anyone from the Byzantine court sent a crown to Géza when he pursued a pro-western politics (pope and emperor)?

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 >>/26898/
There are great many pitfalls and impossible questions in the "crown-research" as some call it, and I'm not surprised great many theories were given birth. Maybe I'll pull out a few, the more interesting or the ridiculous ones, or some claims about the crown (seen some reconstructions of the hypothetized "corona latina", they are really fun, maybe I can find them).
The history of the Holy Crown was investigated by many people - professionals and amateurs alike - both with great care and great fantasy. I wonder if other, foreign piece of artifacts was researched with such thoroughness? For example the Iron Crown of Lombardy as we now it today was really made and used by whom we think it was? I've never actually looked into it.


 >>/26898/
 >>/26899/
kc tier, skull shaped crown would be cool though.

> Before the Conquest our forefathers met Cyril 
only one step away from being pseudo russian, geg'd. 

> Two, why would a Hungarian ruler's imagery was used on a piece of item which was worn in the Byzantine court
maybe they didn't know it was used by  a female or just didn't care.

> Byzantine court sent a crown to Géza when he pursued a pro-western politics (pope and emperor)?
to not let him slip away? check the date and see what were byzantines doing during that time. maybe they were waging war in somewhere else and didn't like the idea magyars turning against them.






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 >>/26919/

That's "westernization". Thanks Petr.

Actually, there were widely circulated folk conspiracy stories of 18th century about Petr I. They say that proper czar was replaced by Dutch and Germans when he was in his long travel abroad (and then started westernization). People said that he had different height and face before, different habits etc. Some called him an "antichrist".

Different versions of story says that he was putted in stone wall in Riga and replaced by lookalike person, putted in barrel and send into sea by Dutch, jailed in Stockholm. Another series of stories say that he was replaced in child times by foreign kid.

Sankt-Peterburg was built with heavy human casualties, no one in sane mind would start building large european city in goddamn flooded swamp. Except maybe some crazy Dutch.

 >>/26923/
> She doesn't even have a beard, befitting for proper Russians.

She was another German agent. She also conquered Crimea - it was start of long-term plan for sanctions. These Germans are evil.


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 >>/26927/
> Do you believe any of those

No. But I don't think that they are completely impossible. Tsar travelled in Europe for two years. He was with escort of course, but in these times without proper communication, some things could happen (especially when escorting nobles also often were Germans or English).

> and dislike him?

No. I don't have emotional opinion about him. There are plenty of ways how Russian history may go without him, be it westernization later or fully indigenous development. It would be fun to see second thing, but it often ends bad.

> Well serfs going to die in one way or another, atleast they make good use. I wish we still could do it nowadays too many cattle like humans wasted for nothing.

Well, serfdom isn't fun at all, but it isn't slavery. There were periods in Russian history when serfs lived considerably well and didn't suffer so much. Did SPb worth it? Probably, at least in 18-19th century, when positioning of city did matter.

 >>/26929/
 >>/26929/
I think it's worth it though some poorlings that didn't deserve to suffer is dead.

Some people die and you have one of the most beautiful cities in the world. I think it's a fair trade.

> fully indigenous development
Maybe.. I think it was mostly a dilemma either embrace heritage of golden horde  or embrace rome (which created western civ) the most.



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 >>/26931/
> Some people die and you have one of the most beautiful cities in the world

Personally I have no city at all.

They could build good city with less struggle I think. But whatever, it doesn't matter because it is done already so I'm ok with it.

> I think it was mostly a dilemma either embrace heritage of golden horde or embrace rome (which created western civ) the most.

As  >>/26933/ said, Russia, especially after 18th century, often dreamed about some kind of "third way". Optimistic person may say that it happened, especially after 1917 (really some third way), pessimist may say that that horrible chimaera is a crime against humanity. 

Although this also doesn't matter much now.


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You know what, Bernd? We already got to know the three lay figures, but who are the other guys? Let's see.

First the rim:
We already met with Christ the Ruler. Below him we can find two archangels.
On his right (our left) is Michael. Defeater of Satan, who throws him to the Earth; Leader of the army of God.
On his left is Gabriel. Herald of God, the Announcer of John the Baptist and Jesus.
Maybe noteworthy: they are the only two archangels named in the New Testament.

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Let's move one row backward and not toward one side since these icons are paired up. So in the next row we can find Saint George (not the blue outline of his halo) and Saint Demetrius (of Thessaloniki) both of whom are military saints/martyrs.
The difference is that Saint George personally fought the Dragon - which in another thread (probably about Satanism) we "established" is Satan himself - just as the dude one row before him: Michael fought with Satan.
Saint Demetrios on the other hand often considered to fight against the enemy of Christianity via proxy: there's a story that one gladiator killed many Christians and Demetrios converted another gladiator, who - aided by his newfound faith - killed the heathen opponent. So he has an aspect that is in line with Gabriel's, both of them are the men of the Word.

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The third line - now we are on the back half on the crown - is the twin brothers: Saint Cosmas and Saint Damain, physicians, martyrs. They healed with pure altruism. I don't think they have from that perceivable duality we can observe at the previous saints.

So for me the pictorial message of the lower part of the Crown is about the role of the king. He is a ruler, a judge, but the servant of God who is the only suzerain above him. He is responsible to spread Christianity by Arms and by Word, both as a leader of masses and as champion in person. He also has to care for his subject's well being, curing their physical and spiritual illnesses (maybe this role has something to do with the "royal touch", laying on hands).

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I want to revisit the Doukas icon for a moment or two. I was wrong it isn't riveted to the Crown now, it is soldered with soft soldering (it should have been done by hard, or maybe brazing - not sure about the correct term, but I think gold hard soldering differs somewhat to brazing -, I read this type of soft soldering eats away that gold in humid conditions, so now the crown was put in a controlled environment to pause the process). But it was riveted there earlier.
This enamel plate also has other curiosities, that three holes above Emperor Michael's head. The one on our right a weird shaped one, like a pear, lightly touches the halo and it has a proper rim. Above that little to the left, that's punctured hole with jagged edges. To our left the third is right on the halo, but this one is really strange the outside edge has a rim but the inside doesn't, in fact it cracked the enamel.
We have older pictures of the crown, photos and drawings. Here's two which are more than 100 years old. You can see, that the hole on the left, it doesn't go into the halo, it's a half circle and has a rim where it touches the halo. So that whole was drilled through. And on the other side it went through Saint Thomas' icon behind the Doukas disk. You can see on pic #3 that the gold strap was punctured twice (the lower two holes) even the burr around them are observable. But the burr means they weren't even used!
And lastly, just to show how big is the Doukas icon... they had to remove the line of pearls below to fit it there. Apparently it's 26% bigger than the socket behind. It's obviously wasn't made for that, this size can't be a mistake. A millimeter or two maybe, but not this.

Two more notes for the rim:
1. In the icons only the figures are enameled, the background is gold.
2. The rim is made of "green gold" which is a gold with higher silver content, i.e. lesser quality.

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The review on the next batch of icons is starting to get into shape. But before I'd get onto it I have to put the fact forward that whatever interpretation I give about the pictorial message of the Crown, it's basically mine as here I wrote:  >>/26988/
Great amount of research were done by many people - I read somewhere that 40 different explanations were made up of it's creation - but it seems to me very few of them actually tried to see what those depicted figures represent and what message they want to convey to the observer. Most researchers stand for the idea that the Crown was made from two parts so it can't have any unified message.
But the two parts can't have one and one on their own? - I ask. At that time literacy was extremely low, even among nobles and sometimes priests couldn't write and read. Relaying information through a pictorial medium was very handy tool (even today it is, just think of computing, GUI and icons revolutionized the use of computers this made it available for the great masses to stomach it) and they used it all the time. Frescos, reliefs, mosaics, statues weren't just decorative purposes, they weren't created because "hey here's an empty space fill it with something nice" but because every figure they depicted held a message in itself.
Ofc with scenes we have an easier job recognizing things. The Imperial Crown of the HRE - the only other crown with enamel plates, the Monomachos-crown might wasn't a crown at all - has such scenes and even captions for those who are able to read hence too smart to understand pictures anymore but lonesome, standstill figures could be and were also symbols, allegories and metaphors of a range of ideas. Those who lived back then it was clear. We, here in our secular world, are now often blindsided by our own genius and well-informed nature, we just know better.
I'm not trying here to decrypt the message, or give a hypothesis of it's meaning I just try to show some unusual things, some peculiarities and wonder why these characters were chosen. However I see only one author who really gives a thought, and a couple more who make some effort. But the one is generally shunned and considered pseudo-scientific researcher. So I was left to my own devices and decided to turn to W*ikipedia to enhance my modest "who-is-who in the Christian mythology" knowledge, while I'm checking these half a handful of writers for their ideas.

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Now we should move on to the cross straps. Here the enamel covers the icons as a whole and the gold of the straps are finer.
On the top laying the Pantokrator, we met that picture already, so I won't linger here much, but I want to interject one thing. This depiction of the Pantokrator with two cypress on his sides are unique to these two icons on the Crown, art history doesn't know another.
But let's get started.

Six of the eight apostles are visible in their entirety.
On the left strap - on the right hand of the Pantokrator - above lays Peter. The label says SCSPETRVS. He has the key - two in fact - as usual. What else can we tell, we'll see later.
Below Andrew - SCSANDREAS - who was Peter's brother. While the pope sits on Peter's chair, the patriarch of Constantinople is the successor of Andrew. He holds a book, probably the Gospel since that his attribute.

On the right strap above they placed Paul, paired up with Peter basically. Labeled SCSPAVLUS. Now that's curious. Latins they used V instead of U. On every occurrence on these plates it's V and even the first one in Paulus it's V, just the second isn't. This guy is a special kind of apostle, isn't one from the original Twelve (or the revised Twelve), he is the example that even for the most wicked there is a salvation. He wasn't just a generic sinner but a persecutor of the disciples. If the whores and tax collectors are loved by God then him is loved even more. And frankly after Peter his was the most important role in the new religion.
Funky thing: traditionally depictions of Jesus with Peter and Paul on his side show the two apostles in reverse compared how they are placed onto the Crown. This led to the speculation that the arrangement of the apostles were changed.
Below Philip - SCSPHILIPVS. We saw why Andrew might have been placed where he was, but Philip apostle has no relation of any kind with Paul. This also looks like an anomaly. It gets a little weirder. We assume these are all apostles but the Crown doesn't say it in any way it says only that they are saints. And there is one Philip in Paul's life, the Evangelist who was visited by Paul. Maybe this Philip the one on the crown? Moreover sometimes the two Philips are mistaken with each other and/or thought to be the same. Accidents happen.

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 >>/27050/
To the front at the feet of Pantokrator John was planted. On the label SCSIOhS can be read. Sounds like a rough abbrevation. Strange tho, not spelling it with proper H. Or without an N despite the wide enough space. So wide in fact that the craftsman added two round blue thingy with a cross on them to fill it. On the other hand the back "leg" of that h protrudes kinda short, almost looks like an n. An h-n ligature perhaps?
To the back - at the head of Jesus - is Jacob, namely SCSIACOBVS. The twelve apostles include two Jacobs, he can be either but one of them is the previously named John's brother. They can also be paired up. On the other hand Jesus' brother was also James, a martyr. Both his and the younger's attribute is a club (among others), what the figure of the icon holds in his right hand can be called a club with a little stretch, no? And why he has dark hair as if he was young, while John looks old?

This also might be worthy to take a look. Who surrounds the closest Jesus? Three of those four who were recruited in the first round, the three who were with him at the Transfiguration - if we assume James of the Crown is the older. And the one who wasn't part of the Disciples but was called by Jesus himself from the Heavens. Why he's special I already described.

Now comes the one with less visibility - he is covered by Emperor Micheal at the back -, Thomas, according to the label: SCSTHOMAS. This one is also strange the T looks as if it was a t or a combination of a T and an L. The one who doubted Jesus' resurrection. But at least after he got his proofs he believed. This guy is a knower, he has to know before he believes. Anyway why is he on the Crown but not someone else? What's his role - beside to get tortured because Doucas just didn't want to remain his place? Kek, he had to poke Jesus' wound now he was poked with a drillbit and got wounded. Poetic. Am not saying he deserved it tho.

But good old Tom and Paul, they also hold a key. Figuratively. The aforementioned researcher, not the "pseudo-scientific" but the legit one (for now he is one, we'll see the future; in case a Hungarian reads this: it's Tóth Endre), who recognized the Doukas icon as a secondary addition, gives new perspecite for the dating of the cross strip. He says these atypical letters, the t in Thomas and u in Pavlus were actually not uncommon on Byzantine coins. Eastern Rome kept minting coins with Latin inscriptions which often contained these type of letters as long as about 1060, when they left Latin behind in favour of Greek. Previously they thought the cross straps were later works, maybe even from the 12th century and were made in western, Italian or German workshop, but it seems as the rim the "graeca" is older than 1074 and Byzantine creation, the straps are older than 1074 (1060) too, and Byzantine.
Thanks Thomas and Paulus!

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 >>/27052/
I left the first one (if we observe the crown from the front, he would be the first one to notice if not for Jesus) to the last because it's another anomaly which deserves a more detailed inspection.
The last apostle is Bartholomew, or in Latinized: Bartholomaeus. Or more than likely he is. Because we can't see this icon today. I tried hard to find a photograph with google online, and elsewhere in articles, and in books which shows at least a few letters at the corners, but no avail.
So the Pantokrator at the front simply covers his icon. You can see how the ornaments on the rim bend a little inside. But maybe that wasn't the case all the time. At least two drawings of the Bartholomew icon were preserved from the 19th century, which means there had to had been some view in.
The first one is from exactly 1800. This is fairly unknown work and I had to take a screenshot of a modern book which has this picture in it. This drawing doesn't give us a full picture only the top of the head of the dude and the label: ARTHOLO. Granted the artist made some mistakes elsewhere, enough to compare his version of John with the real one we can say he wasn't the most accurate, but he gave back the inscription of John's precisely with the h-n ligature, the space filling motifs and all that, so I would assume the Artholo caption is precise too.
The problem with this drawing would be that it was published in a book of previously mentioned researcher who is considered to be "pseudo-scientific" and I don't think anyone else mentions this among the modern scholars. However other 19th century authors know about this "Artholo" inscription or at least the existence of this drawing - one article even mentions that the "SCSB" is missing due to a nail which was driven through and damaged it. I found another book of the same writer purchasable online but not what was published in 1800. So both the artist and the picture exists surely.
The next one was published in 1886. That says SCSBARTHOLO and depicts a full figured apostle. It's in a book of a renowned scientist of the Crown-research. His picture is used by everyone since then, but neither had the opportunity to personally take a look. He wasn't the drawer, but was part of the team - and probably the leader of it - which was allowed to inspect the crown. The artist however had very good eyes and reliable hands, that we can state. So since this picture was the basis of all later analysis' there was nothing new published about this Artholo since then. Noteworthy: his version still ends with -artholo, and doesn't have the -VS ending the other saints have.

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 >>/27053/
But in 1945 the National Socialist government left the country, fled to the west with the Germans and they took the Crown with themselves. From them the Americans confiscated it and sent it to the US. They gave it back in 1978. Then, a few years later (I think in 1983) a group of goldsmiths (actually 3 electric engineers, a mechanical engineer and a metallurgist) was allowed to study and examine the crown. The whole process was recorded on film by the "royal" television. I haven't seen a second of the footage sadly I dunno if it's available to anyone.
They looked behind the Pantokrator with the help of strong lamps, halogen lamps, fundus lens and laryngoscope. Two of them did it and both firmly stated: it reads ARTHOLO, the plate slid lower down in the socket and the icon is broken, most of it is missing. They also determined that the cross strap behind the icon is bent forward so it flexes to the broken plate and fixes it in place in the socket.
Later one dude from this group started to write about the crown a lot with wild ravings and frequently little basis so everyone started to take their findings less seriously. Also it is "found out" (as if it was a secret) their relation with the "pseudo-scientific" researcher (based on what I know about his works I think he has unusual ideas and great imagination but I wouldn't label them "pseudo" for this) and got attacked from the "officials". I think if they had just presented their findings, without adding any comments and making conclusions, it would have been better.
Another company of goldsmiths made an investigation in the early '90s (93-94 I think), and they are referred to frequently since, even Hungarian Wikipedia presents some of their findings and opinions. I couldn't get any of their reports from online source, probably with the help of libraries I could read them but that's just too much effort for our purpose (and probably money). Nevertheless the available material of theirs tells nothing about the Bartholomew icon.
I read however that the aforementioned Tóth Endre - the one who is considered legit - recognized the claim of the first group about Artholo as true.
What this means to us? Not much, but we can smile on the joke that he was flayed so his skin is missing from the Crown.



The vast literature on the subject reached consensus only on the two points that (i) the crown which has borne his name for centuries, never embellished St Stephen’s head, and that (ii) the crown was assembled from parts with different provenance.

http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/13015/1/13015.pdf, pp. 424

Gypsy BTFO

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Just a quick post for today in this topic.
I gathered a handful of theory of how the hypothetical "corona latina" looked like. Most of them operates on the basis that there were 12 apostle icons originally. Some questions if those were on a crown at all before they were placed on the Holy Crown. Since today it seems sure it was never a crown in the first place and back in the day they recycled other items to create a new one it could have happened. But we have no actual evidence, so the icons may or may not were made specifically for the crown.
And since we're talking about the icons, in the previous posts about the apostles (  >>/27050/ and  >>/27052/ ), look at their eyes, they all squinting. While the figures of the rim have directional looks, they look toward the front or stare back straight to anyone who looks at them (typically the two emperors) these ones on the top aren't. This squinting look might imply they doesn't watch this material world around them, but they look to the "other side", into heaven.

I won't post the head relic holder again, you can find it here  >>/26899/
I think right now this is the post popular solution to a most likely nonexistent problem.



I continued the search for anomalies and curiosities on or related to the Holy Crown. Came across a striking and very original remark about the rim's icons.
Here:  >>/26986/ the archangels have a childlike face.
Then here:  >>/26987/ the warrior saints are look like a teenager.
Then comes the row of the healer saints:  >>/26988/ they are young adults with beard.
And at the back of the Crown  >>/26892/ we can find an adult Geobitzas with long beard (the position of his eyes fit into the order of the previous sets of icons).
That Emperor Kon however doesn't fit into this system, looks young and stares straight forward. The researcher who made this observation concludes his icon is a secondary placement (he bases this on several other facts and observations not only on this).


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The next two peculiarities aren't with the Crown but the (Hungarian) Wikipee articles about the Crown.
I'm gonna take the simpler one first. 

A Hungarian noble, certain Révay Péter, who hold an important office leading a county, was trusted as a Crown Guard at the dawn of the 17th century. He was there with Mathias II when he was crowned in 1608. This guy wrote a book about the Holy Crown, with the KC-tier title of De sacrae coronae regni Hungariae ortu, virtute, victoria, fortuna, annos ultra DC clarissimae brevis commentarius which was published in Augsburg, 1613. It was re-published a few times since proved to be a very popular work, I think on the Hungary only the Bible ranked more popular than this. The topic of this book is more of the spiritual and judicial work than an analysis of the Crown as an item or piece of art.
The book contains however a very concise description which became of the basis of certain speculations. "Official" researchers dismiss his book as a source since his description isn't clear and he seemed to made some mistakes. However his book came with an illustration, a depiction of the Crown which looks quite different from the real one.
Here's a screenshot of the Hungarian Wiki page which compares the drawing in the book and a later one from 1790. And the subtitle says: "Révay's drawing of the crown (above) and the depiction based on the official inspection of 1790 (below)"
The problem is that it isn't Révay's drawing. Originally it is an engraving made by a German artist, a certain Wolfgang Kilian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Kilian), who had never seen the crown, and only could use the little what Révay wrote.
Also there isn't just one but some (all?) later editions use another illustration which is very similar to the first one but still contain a few differing details.
So why the Wiki says it was made by Révay?



 >>/27686/
Thanks, I'm gonna continue, yes. If it makes Bogdan butthurt it just makes things more sweater. Even though nothing what's written should cause anyone butthurt.
This pdf thing isn't a bad idea. Other threads I made could also go into separate documents, Time Travel Thread for starters it died already but others might have interest in it. Maybe could be used these to support Endchan in some way, Odili has a Patreon for that, maybe could be made available for download there or something. What I write here couldn't publish under my name anyway.



 >>/27711/
It represents the divine origin of the royal authority. Back than the source of sovereignty wasn't the consent of the people but God, so they thought. Also in the case of the Holy Crown the motif relates to the folk tales/myths I wrote here  >>/25095/ at the 12b point. However I dunno if the picture was inspired by the myth or vice versa, or if they related in any way.

 >>/27713/
but putting humans or non divine beings would be.. more humanistic. as humans we have crushed our delusions. we dont need them anymore.

as long as it's not purely political and tries to rewrite history and traditions putting something wordly would be better.

 >>/27714/
That particular depiction was made in the 17th century. And - for example - our days' coat of arms where angels stand also originate from times when they mattered. Or have some other meaning.
And it's not really a delusion, divine could represent moral which still should make sense these days.

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 >>/27701/
I think Palemoon and Firefox has an option that lets you save a page as a pdf. Though I'm not entirely 100% sure.

You can also save a copy of an entire page by pressing cmd(or control) and the s button if you wanted to. But this won't let you expand the images inside a thread. They'll be in the default thumbnail display.

Another final and good option is making it yourself using Libre Office. 

https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/Export_as_PDF

You can just put this thread's text inside a document, arrange the pictures, decorate if you want to and export it as a pdf. It surprisingly gives you a lot of options when making a pdf. Even giving you the option to embed external urls inside of it.

 >>/27716/
Yes, thanks, I did those stuff for one reason or another in the past. Now I thought about looking into Scribus but it might be an overkill when an LibreOffice Writer could do the job, I can edit, format the text and place the pictures around, maybe even make little descriptive captions below them. And some editing, re-drafting and correcting the text is in need.
I also thought about doing it with html, and convert it with Calibre. But that's too much manual work.

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Later we will return to Mr. Révay because he adds a very controversial detail for Crown researchers, but for now let's continue with the other curiosity in the Wikipee articles.
This time it isn't on the page of the Crown. In 1993-94 another group of goldsmiths was allowed to examine the Crown, most likely because the so called Crown Committee wasn't pleased by the results of the previous band, who can be suspected that they wanted to find answers to certain questions and dismissed other facts they could have included in their work but didn't fit into their agenda.
This Committee was set up right at the moment when the Crown returned home from the US, and was the most influential authority in Crown-research up until 2000, since they could decide whom to allow in the vicinity of the Crown. By the 90's it was consisted of four people, an archaeologist/art historian, a museologist/art historian and two goldsmiths. The new goldsmith group was basically them.
I didn't have access to their reports - I think I mentioned this before, and I think it is an awful shame but this is what it is - so I read what's written on the Hungarian Wiki article about this. There are some interesting things here but there is one particular one about the "Corona Latina", which we already know it wasn't a crown at all in any point of it's history.
The article says that the goldsmiths found evidence that the cross straps were longer and contained the missing 4 apostles of the twelve.

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On pic #1 it is fairly visible even to us that where the icons are placed into their sockets the gold plate has rectangular depressions. And here:  >>/26989/ the "backside" of the Thomas icon is also a fair example. According to Wikipee similar depressions, or rather the outset of them were found by the goldsmiths on the end of the straps.
For us (the general public and not just us here in the thread) it would be nice to see actual photographs of these, sadly the article missing such.
I found an article in scientific journal however by the de facto leader of the Crown Committee (Lovag Zsuzsa) from 1986 where she published several photos of the cross strap pieces, two of them depict the lower parts which are joined to the rim. #2 and #3 this one is upside down are the photos in question. Granted they just black and white and not very good resolution, however we should see the signs of those initial depressions of the icons' sockets. There are none. The only observable unevenness is the result of the riveting process.
For reference #4 is a shot of a strap and the central piece (with the Pantokrator above), the depression is clearly visible on that.
The colored examples (#1 and the Thomas icon referenced above) also show no sign of such depressions tho it can be argued the angle makes it hard to recognize them.
It is possible that only one strap or maybe the two not published in the article - where I found the photos - have that feature, but that would mean only that one or those two had "extensions" and icons on them.
The members of the Crown Committee subscribe(d) to the hypotheses that say originally the cross straps contained the icons of all twelve apostles whatever it was (crown, relic holder etc.) before it was assembled with the rim, so maybe it was a wishful thinking on their part when they believed they saw those depressions, when they mistook random deformations with them. It was the verification of their own ideas so maybe they read more into them than they should had.
Or maybe the author of that article is in some monkey business - since the original reports can't be easily accessed. (In case a Hungarian reads this and has access to them: please share!)

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As promised. now about Révay Péter, crown guard.
Briefly I wrote about who he was and for our purpose I don't think we need much more. For a reminder this his book about the Holy Crown and related topics:
De sacrae coronae regni Hungariae ortu, virtute, victoria, fortuna, annos ultra DC clarissimae brevis commentarius. Augsburg, 1613.
Second edition: couldn't find data - third, extended edition: 1659, by Nádasdy Ferenc justiciar (judex curiae regiae) - later editions (based on extended): Nagyszombat, 1732, 1735, 1749
One central question in the Crown-research is the three ruler icons on the back of the rim, them:  >>/26892/ and their authenticity: if they are original to the Crown and if not when they were placed onto it.
We saw here  >>/26893/ and here  >>/26989/ that the Doukas icon doesn't fit at all and in general those researchers who question that those plates were on the Crown put Emperor Michael on the first place to be a suspect of a secondary addition. He is followed by Konstantine/Konstantios and Geobitzas is the third.
This is where Révay comes in the picture. In his book - as I mentioned - he gives a vague description of the Crown and a generalized list whose pictures can be seen on it. He finishes this list with a very interesting item: he says at the back of the crown on the rim above (where Doukas resides) the makers of the Crown put the depiction of Virgin Mary.
For a while now the "offical" line just waves away the problem this report represents, caliming that Révay wrote a bunch of nonsense, usually taking the image from his book (here:  >>/27629/) and say: see how could we believe to Révay even his drawing looks nothing like the real Crown. So when they want to do a short job on this, they pull ad hominems instead of addressing the question.
Ofc there are some real arguments against it why the Virgin Mary couldn't be there, or how he could make the mistake to "put" her there even tho he saw several times the Crown, he could hold it in his hand observe it if it needs reparing (twice before the first publishing of his book and 3-4 times later).
There are also questions that how, when and who would have changed Mary to Michael who in 1790 was doubtlessly in his place, and those who accept Révay's report blindly usually blame Emperor Joseph II with the "vandalization" of the Crown who didn't even bothered to get crowned as a Hungarian king and tried to rule us as emperor. But where did he get that Byzantine icon which is more or less similar to the others? Or where he got a goldsmith who could make a fake one? Or why would he even cared to act so?
Much more likely this explanation here:  >>/26895/ how Doukas get on the Crown.
Anyway, the Virgin Mary is/was very important to Hungary. According to the legend, Saint Stephen just before he died offered the Crown and the Country to Virgin Mary and among Catholics the kingdom was called Regnum Marianum for a long time. In this tradition Révay's report would fit splendidly, in a kinda poetic way to be honest.

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I'm looking for actual arguments against Révay's statement that the Virgin Mary was on the Crown where now Michael Doukas is.
It does seem to me that up until the these years (maybe to 2017) there isn't any actual evidence were presented only speculations why he could mistake those two person, so basically those researchers who believed the authenticity of the Doukas icon and cared enough to spend some words on Révay, they tried to make up stuff to invalidate the contradictory evidence what Révay's statement means in relation their Doukas theory.
Only very recently was found something concrete, however I wouldn't bet my life on this either. So before the coronation of Mathias II (1608) the Crown was held "captive" in Prague by the Habsburg, until the new king-elect ordered to it's return to Hungary. On this occasion was Révay selected to be a crown-guard (with another) and he could examine the Crown both before and after the coronation. Then after this event during the coronation dinner it was displayed publicly many could walk up to it and check it out. Based on this muster one observer did make a drawing but it was lost for a long time, only was recovered recently and this new team of researchers could take a look at it. According to them while it is very faint they could make out the outline of a labarum the figure in question is holding in the hand, which cannot be an attribute of the Virgin Mary, but Doukas has one so it can only be the emperor.
I couldn't find the actual picture - maybe they published it in a book, I hope so - but it might be a wishful thinking on behalf of them. I found another interesting detail about Révay's observations...
In the first edition he mentions he noticed Greek letters on the crown and in the extended edition he says that on one icon he could spell out the letters KON, and based on this he recognized emperor Constantine I (the Great) in the icon, who gave a crown to pope Sylvester I, then later this crown was given by Sylvester II to our king Saint Stephen.
Now, if he observed well enough to recognize Greek letters, and he understood that one dude there is a Konstantine (albeit his conclusion, which Konstantine he is, is wrong), and it was obvious to him that this guy is an emperor, how could he confuse Mary with another emperor?

Picrel is just a fantasy how a supposed Virgin Mary could look like. Also there are some other info which might worth for me to check out.


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 >>/27701/
> Patreon
Just an fyi, most people wont help support anything that does or encourages anything shady
I'm speaking about the some of the banners here, if I could be more blunt about the issue
> lol we're just being ironic and passive aggressive xD
People will still be turned off and wont pay anything. Even I don't feel like posting here so often because of it

Today is Swiss national holiday. As Hungary we don't celebrate independence, but the foundation of the country (although it was some sort of independence from Habsburg). The other countries had one, so we needed one too and summer is the best time for a day off. I just noticed that the United Kingdom doesn't even have such thing as national holiday, which celebrates the country itself.



 >>/28385/
 >>/28382/
yeah erste august(?) it is. coolest fireworks time.

> although it was some sort of independence from Habsburg
> habsburg
well HRE wasnt a habsburg empire, there was some other dynasties that took over by election. you get your foundation after 30 years war right? just like netherlands afaik.

 >>/28387/
Well I wouldn't go that far to call us superhumans but yeah, for some extend I agree we are a little bit more special.

 >>/28388/
Habspergers are a Swiss family. They also claim suzerainty because they were dukes, it's not an emperor thing. And the communes had to fight to kick them out.





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National Holiday today. Made threads previously but don't want to open a new one now. Maybe should write something, an aspect of the thing or just about a detail. Will see.



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It's national holiday time!
Since the related thread was lost (the one of October 6th and the Martyrs of Arad) I'll make the celebratory postenings here. I chew a little bigger than I could bite for one sitting, but it seems I've plenty of time in the near future to finish this topic.

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 >>/35166/
Or rather bit more than I can chew... but...

Today I want to introduce you Görgey (or Görgei) Artúr, a hero of the War of Independence, who could have been the Hungarian Napoleon, but his tragedy was that his many qualities didn't cover the field of politics, so he was cast aside and labeled as a traitor, especially after he had to play the ungrateful role of the capitulating leader.
He lived a long life (1818-1916) most of it in obscurity. He grew up in an impoverished noble family with his nine siblings. In his early teen years he enrolled into the Kaiser's army, studied at the sapper school at Tulln, served as infantryman then hussar (in the Kaiser's Leibgarde too). But being an officer in peacetime wasn't much of a career, he left to pursue his interests instead, learnt chemistry (his publications were widely acknowledged). After his fifteen minutes of fame during the War, he spent some time in prison, and then while he did a few valuable works (like helping the new Defense Force to form in 1868), his name faded into the background.
His knowledge in military sciences was fairly deep, and was complemented with his innate talent for them. He had the mathematical and technical knowledge of military engineering, got to know the inner working of a general staff, understood organization and training, had insights into the problems of logistics. During the war he put them in good use, and as importantly his performance on the battlefield was swell, he parried operational challenges, and made strategically sound decisions. His personal bravery and sense of duty didn't lack either. I don't like to use superlatives, but he really was a damned good officer.

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Now I didn't write the event history of the 1848-49 Revolution and War of Independence in previous national holiday threads which makes it little hard to introduce a new face or a concept related to the whole happening. So here, when I talk about an important soldier of the War, I really should outline at least the military events to some extent, and it gives an opportunity to direct light to his exploits throught the struggle.
The War was fought on three fronts, on the chief Western, and on two "auxiliary" operational areas, in Erdély (Transylvania proper) and in the Délvidék (the area now belongs to Serbia, Vojvodina). The latter two was consolidated gradually and could be considered pacified until the Russian intervention. The main theater of war was more changeable. It also consisted of smaller operational areas:
1. from Croatia and Slavonia toward Budapest
2. the main - from Wien to Budapest along the Danube, which passed the important fortress of Komárom
3. over the highlands
4. from Eperjes, through Kassa and Miskolc to the region of Eger
5. on the open lands of the northern parts of Danube-Tisza Interfluve, between Budapest and Szolnok
These were active during different periods of the War. Görgey himself was a key figure on all of them, tho in different assignments as he rose in the ranks with dizzying speed.

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He joined in the affair after the Revolution, in May. Enlisted to the military and Captain Görgey was entrusted with various organizational tasks, like recruiting, training, obtaining equipment and ammunition, and setting up the manufacturing of these. Right during these times he was noticed by Kossuth Lajos, minister of finance in the revolutionary government, then the prime minster/president of the second cabinet, and later governor himself, a great revolutionary, a central political figure, and who would deserve his own piece of discourse. Kossuth played an important part in Görgey's career arch and he became the source of blame which was shifted onto Görgey in the end. He probably both admired and feared the soldier's capabilities.
Then the first attack came on behalf of the Court, in 1848 September Jelacic, Croat Ban, moved against Budapest. Further to the East marched the troops of General Roth, whose job was to join Jelacic. Major Görgey commanded the vanguard of a unit entrusted to halt Roth and prevent the plan. First he forced to surrender Roth's vanguard, then helped to encircle Roth himself.
Jelacic was defeated and had to retreat toward Vienna moar liek Yellowcic amirite, where the October Revolution had just started. Colonel Görgey, attached to the main army, followed. On the occasion the Hungarian leadership committed a great blunder (well, it's more complicated than that, but it is out of our scope now). At the Austrian border our pursuing army was halted to lament if they have the right to enter. And by the time they decided that hell yeah we should help the Viennese revolutionaries, the uprising was quenched and the Kaiserlich troops could face the Hungarian army alone, on their terms, and from both quantitative and qualitative superiority. Here the fate of both Austria and Hungary could have been decided and the whole inconvenience stopped, but instead our host was defeated and the struggle got prolonged. The battle was at Schwechat (1848 October 30), where Major General Görgey was now in command on the centre or the army. The battle was hopeless, he could only cover the retreat of his infantry with his cavalry, preventing their total destruction.

 >>/35169/
> Jelacic was defeated and had to retreat toward Vienna moar liek Yellowcic amirite, where the October Revolution had just started. Colonel Görgey, attached to the main army, followed. On the occasion the Hungarian leadership committed a great blunder (well, it's more complicated than that, but it is out of our scope now). At the Austrian border our pursuing army was halted to lament if they have the right to enter.
Was it feasible to march on Vienna? Even with the city in flames it must've been well fortified on the outside.

 >>/35167/
 >>/35168/
 >>/35169/
> Today I want to introduce you Görgey (or Görgei) Artúr, a hero of the War of Independence

Are there any statues dedicated to him? Is his life celebrated in Hungary at all?

> After his fifteen minutes of fame during the War, he spent some time in prison

Why though?

Any books or movies about him?

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 >>/35207/
> it must've been well fortified on the outside.
Exactly. The imperial troops had to siege the city as rebels seized control (their military commander was Joseph Bem - or Uncle Bem as we call him - who was quite good at his job). Windisch-Grätz could have been caught with his pants down and beaten.

 >>/35209/
> statues
Yes. More photos of picrel:
https://www.kozterkep.hu/1759/gorgey-artur#
> celebrated
Not really.
It's not easy to judge the case of Görgey. Both public opinion and historical view changed a lot with the winds throughout the past 170 years. Recently - for example - quite a few works were published which takes his side with suspiciously great enthusiasm and are sold as official view of authoritative scientists who gives us the true gold standard in the question (even in historical journals not just by the press and media in general). I wonder when the mantra will change again.
So I'm struggling with my source material, that's the reason I not yet finished his story.
>  >some time in prison
I was mistaken, he was detained in Klagenfurt, he could move freely just couldn't leave.
> Why though?
That's part of the problem and I wish to explore that.
> Any books 
Many. He even have his own, published during the internment of Klagenfurt: Mein Leben und Wirken in Ungarn in den Jahren 1848 und 1849. Was published in English as well, I post that too.
> movies about
I don't think so. But literary works was written, dramas, novels and such, so might one could be implemented I guess.

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 >>/35169/
Additional map for this, it's basically Western Hungary (Transdanubia).
Orange: imperials.
Green: Hungarians.
Red dots: battles.
So Jelacic came from the SE ("Horvátország"), take a rout south of Balaton Lake toward Pest-Buda, then got beaten at Pákozd, on Sept 29. From there he retreated to Vienna ("Bécs"). Meanwhile his reinforcement was beaten by Görgey and Perczel Mór (he was the senior at that time).
Jelacic's troops consisted regular imperial troops, Croat grenzers and other irregulars. At Győr the latter parts were detached and sent back to Croatia.
The Hungarian main force after Pákozd instead of pursue the imperials, was drawn back to a settlement to the east, and after then they followed. I'm not sure about that battle at Győr on the 7-8th October. Anyway the revolution in Vienna happened on October 6th, our army delayed to cross the Leitha to 28th. Then was beaten at Schwechat on the 30th by Windisch-Grätz.

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Then came the problems.
Kossuth shifted one gear up, worked day and night to organize the defence, to build up a new army, to balance out the endeavors of the so called Peace Party who wished to seek an agreement with the Court. He tried to be everywhere, tried to control everything. He even tried to manually control Görgey, the new commander of the freshly beaten army, whom he had just appointed. Kossuth, led by his idealistic view on how things should happen, often gave contradictory or quickly changing orders to Görgey who on the other hand founded his own ideas onto the reality of the actual military situation he faced. He was on the scene and was in direct control of the troops. This was also a difference, Kossuth saw the larger scope of the conflict, Görgey - at that point, since that was his job - only could judge, based on his slice of the war, though he probably followed news from elsewhere. Their opinion clashed, Kossuth wanted him to hold as many land as possible, and encouraged him to undertake a battle to gain time and keep up the morale of the country, Görgey on the other hand avoided combat, since the opponent was way stronger, and retreated.
Meanwhile the front moved eastward again, a battle was lost by an other army led by General Perczel, which allowed the approach of the capital. The "neighbour" unit was Görgey's and the lack of help from him led Perczel to nurse a little grudge toward the hero of our story. As a result of the defeat the government and the legislation fled from Pest-Buda to Debrecen and the marshalling area of a new army, which could possibly confront Windisch-Grätz - the commander of the Emperor's army -. was rebased along the Tisza river. Görgey retreated again and Castle Buda was taken, with the city of Pest on the other side of the Danube. Görgey moved his army to a bit north along the great river to Vác.

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The political situation wasn't clear. The legal ruler of the country was still Ferdinand, then Franz Joseph (tho he wasn't crowned yet, and was considered as a usurper by the Diet, ie. the parliament), but now the country found herself fighting them. This presented a dilemma for the officer corps of the Defense Forces, more precisely for those who took an oath for the king. This dilemma and the seemingly unavoidable defeat induced a mass desertion among the officers, about one third of them left the service. (Note: the Hungarian army consisted two main types of units: freshly organized national guards and "old" k.u.k. units with k.u.k. officers who chose to obey the Hungarian government for a reason or another, and were integrated into the body of the Defence Forces. Also I call units inaccurately as armies, they are brigades, divisions, and corps, I just don't want to add more pointless work to look up which was which.)
So in the early January of 1849 Görgey gave a proclamation. He shifted the blame onto the wartime government for the situation the army found itself in - he saves himself saying he takes the blame for following their faulty orders - then he collected his view into four points: the operation of the army should be based on the constitutional Laws of April (of 1848) signed by king Ferdinand V, he refuses and will fight any kind of republicanism, he only accepts commands from the legitimate minister of defence, he will only accept any deal with the enemy as legal if it is based and the constitution and saves the honor of the army (if it ensures they aren't committing treason with their struggle).
With this move he managed to stop the desertion of the officers (tho some argue that officers stopped leaving their units as well where they got to know about the proclamation much later), however it led to some tensions with the wartime government and kinda implied he won't obey to Kossuth's orders.

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But he deviated from the plans too. Instead of holding the line in front of the main attacking force of the Emperor, and backing toward the marshalling area, he chose to evade instead and started a march toward north east. While his move weakened the direct defense of the new center of rally it was quite unexpected for the imperial command. They sent a considerable force onto his chase, in case he breaks into Austrian lands, or threatens logistically important settlements and supply lines. Görgey basically stopped the enemy's advance at the region of the Danube just the same.
His part in the so called Winter Campaign was a mixed bag. While he and his subordinate commanders lost more battles than won, the strategical goal to distract troops, and then joining to the rest of the forming Hungarian force was successful. They achieved some feats, and did surprising moves (like re-digging a route through an unused mine from one side of a hill to the other, and then retreat through the tunnel), and in overall it was an adventure for sure, but while he went on this hike through the Highlands, Kossuth decided whom he appoints as the new commander-in-chief and that person wasn't the obvious choice Görgey, but - as a reaction for the Proclamation of Vác - a Polish revolutionary, General Henryk Dembinski. He had experience in that role but he was a brand new face around here which led to a couple of disagreements with a few key figures - among them Görgey -, and lost his first important battle against Windisch-Grätz (at Kápolna, on 1849 February 26-27, I have my suspicion that his failure was "helped" by those key figures just a little bit, but maybe I'm just too cynical). After the popular demand of the high ranking officers - sometimes called as a mutiny -, he was dismissed, but his "heir" commander-in-chief Görgey was also dismissed by Kossuth a couple of days later. Which was way less harsh treatment than the original plan that Görgey gets a bullet in his head for organizing and leading the mutiny instead of suppressing those who objected Dembinski's nomination as asked by Kossuth earlier. It turned out he just joined but not led and after personal meetings and discussions with Kossuth, their relation normalized and when the next commander-in-chief was resigned citing his illness finally Görgey got the position for good.

In the first map Bernd can find Görgey's and his junior commanders activity in the north western segment, also on the colored map.



 >>/35304/
Apparently he had epilepsy, the hydrocephal is just my speculation. He had a sharp mind otherwise. He was fluent in six languages: German, Italian, Czech, Croat, French, and Hungarian(!). Could play several musical instruments. He had humor too.
He just was useless as a ruler.


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Görgey was a swell choice for the commander-in-chief position. Units were concentrated, new were drafted and he used them well. He beat Windisch-Grätz at Isaszeg (April 6), and turned the tables. The Spring Campaign proved to be successful although the main imperial force managed to slip out of their hands. Nevertheless they pushed the front back to the western border, they broke the siege of Komárom - an important fortress at the Danube west from the capital -, liberated Pest and recaptured Buda Castle. The War of Independence reached it's peak, now most of the country was under the control of the Hungarian government. The Hungarian Defence Force proved it can be a match for the imperial army.
The new challenge was the political situation. In a previous thread (October 6th, commemoration of the Martyrs of Arad) I wrote that just before the Revolution our nation could take four possible ways to implement the reforms that finally would dismantle the feudal structures. These routs all had their proponents whom constantly argued about implementation. The paths:
1. Proceed in a very cautious fashion with the lead of the Habsburg Court, small steps without great trauma;
2. constitutional monarchy with the Habsburgs at the helm, but apply the changes without their lead, their role was of the passive consenter's;
3. constitutional monarchy without the Habsburgs, fuck them;
4. republic.

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After the first path led to a dead end due to Metternich's reactionarism the Revolution started us with the second. The person of the king suited for this, since Ferdinand V wasn't much of ruler anyway. The aforementioned Laws of April was signed by him, providing a constitutional basis for the civic changes.
It was fine until the camarilla made Ferdinand to abdicate in favour of his nephew Franz Joseph, and launched the attack to end this little rebellion of ours. The problem was that maybe the Austrian Emperor could just put his crown down but not the Hungarian king. On the basis of the ancient law if you were Hungarian king then you were in it 4life, n keepin it real. A new king had to be elected first, even if it was a formality (it happened in the past that crowned kings elevated an elected king beside them, the heir apparent and they co-ruled), and then he had to be crowned with the Holy Crown during a ceremony with specific rules*.
So it was a possibility to elect Franz Joseph, and wait until Ferdinand dies, then crown F.J. But nor the government neither the Diet were willing to do such things, especially since F.J. and the Court did not want to hear anything about the Laws of April they wanted to restore absolutist rule. From Olmütz he imposed his own constitution on us in early March, which pretty much intended to abolish self-determination, and taking out the control from the hands of the Diet and the government.
It made clear the Habsburgs won't let us get away with constitutional monarchy, no matter if they remained the titular rulers. So next month the Diet dethroned them and declared independence. Kossuth became the governor, and now we were on the third path. And the fourth. The Declaration of Independence didn't settle the form of government, actually it didn't settle anything. The Laws of April was considered still in effect which implied constitutional monarchy, but our Coat of Arms was changed to a Crownless one, the so called Kossuth CoA, which basically a republican CoA and we didn't have a monarch but a "civilian" at the helm of the country. Many officers were against the dethronement and many more felt aversion toward a republic - smelled too much jacobin and they hated that -, and as before in January this made a particular stratum of the officers and even soldiers feel as they were oathbreakers, and technically this could be held against them (and it was going to). By that time Görgey built up quite a reputation among the fellow officers, he was widely respected, so when he said it's okay, they followed.


*If we really want to be nitpicky we can judge that many Habsburg rulers of ours weren't actually our kings by those rules. Ferdinand V neither.
On the other hand it implemented modern civic changes, so it can be viewed as path #1. On similar basis the Compromise of 1867 (which given birth to the dualist Austria-Hungary) can be interpreted as a midway between the first two routs, hence compromise.

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After some courtship Görgey accepted the position of the minister of defence from Kossuth. For a while he tried to ride both horses - the position of commander-in-chief and the ministership - simultaneously but that made the leading of the troops inefficient. He met the Peace Party however, which wished to seek an agreement with the Kaiser. Military dictatorship was discussed, that he should take over the power and then make an agreement with Franz Joseph how to place it into his. According to his memoir, he refused them, in an article - which actually takes his side - I read he offered military takeover, but the Peace Party shied off. According to Kossuth he promised Görgey many times to help him to more power if he wanted it, but Görgey was reluctant, even make him agreeing the ministership wasn't easy. I guess he really didn't want political power, he was fine as a soldier, a high ranking one, but still just a soldier.

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New development was the Tsar's involvement in the War. The victorious spring triggered the Court to seek his help, however for the lack of precise information quite a few people (among them the Peace Party, and maybe Görgey, or even the members of the government) thought it was a reaction for the declaration of independence. The news arrived spring, the armies summer.
The plan was to face the Kaiser's and try diplomacy against the Tsar's. After the battles in the west didn't produce the results fast enough, the government decided to concentrate the armies near Szeged (in the south on the Great Plain) which was a silly plan since that allowed Haynau and Paskevich to join forces. Btw Haynau (the Hyena), he was freshly appointed to lead the imperial troops on Hungarian lands, after he was recalled from his Italian holiday mayhem. He was a tougher nut than Windisch-Grätz.
Görgey commuted between Pest and Komárom which served as the main base for the western operations. His division between his two office hindered him to serve optimally, finally his appointment as a minister was revoked (thanks for a mixup), he got a headwound which incapacitated him for a while, and they had to give up Transdanubia according to the new plan. They were late and a Russian unit stood already in their way. They had to evade which made their trip longer, and Russian envoys approached him but apparently they were just distractions to grant time for an encirclement. Görgey didn't let his army getting trapped but himself sent messages to Paskevich, in word and in letter. He prodded the Russian leadership if we could capitulate to them, and what would they think if they could place a Russian ruler above our country. Problem was he didn't have the authority to parley and the government didn't know about his diplomatic actions, they were informed after the fact.
Our armies had no time to unite. The main force was led instead of Arad to Temesvár by Dembinski, the place was in the hand of the enemy, and he managed to send the baggage train with the supplies elsewhere. For his failure he gave up the command, and Bem was trusted with that, he couldn't do much but went to battle against Haynau on the 9th of August, and our army got destroyed. Görgey stood at Arad where the same day he had a meeting with Kossuth. Kossuth reproached Görgey, but essentially they discussed the case if we lose the battle, Görgey raised the possibility of the capitulation.
Few hours later when the news arrived Görgey went to Kossuth and asked to give him the power, the Russians did't negotiate with the revolutionary government, only with the military. Kossuth resigned and Görgey assumed dictatorship. On 13th August at Világos he laid down the arms in front of a Russian general, Rüdiger.

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Mopping up left for the invaders, the remnants of the military dispersed. Some tried to give themselves up some put the border into target and left, officials and even a few civilians did similarly. The Ottoman Empire was a first station, there they could gain asylum, few stayed, most left to west. Kossuth himself went to Paris, London, America, tried to drum up support for the cause of the Revolution, he lived the rest of his life for this. The Emigration made this for its profession, rekindling the resistance, renew the struggle. They tried to exploit every possibility, great opportunities were the unification of Italy and Germany. Veterans of the War of Independence fought in great numbers in Italy, some even in the American Civil War*.
At home the iron fist smashed down with brutality, Haynau made sure of that. Officers and officials whom they could arrest were executed by the hundreds others imprisoned for a long time. Simple soldiers were press-ganged into the imperial army. On 6th October, the thirteen martyr, 12 generals and a colonel was executed at Arad (Bernd might remember), the Prime Minister of the first government was shot at Pest.
It's an enigma how Görgey got away with being the most prominent general of the Defence Force. He was relocated to Klagenfurt where he lived till 1867 in relative freedom, although he couldn't leave and couldn't get a job and had to live on the bare minimum provided by the Habsburg state. The most recent version of the speculation is, that after he fell into Russian captivity the Tsar threatened the Emperor, that they will bring Görgey to Russia as a badge of their triumph if they don't give him amnesty. Or they wanted to use the young (he was 31!) and talented general against the Habsburgs in case of a war. I think historians give rationalizations of dubious value, but if he really wasn't a traitor or an agent of the Habsburg Court (probably wasn't either), it is very likely the Russians pressured Franz Joseph and Haynau to leave him alone.


* Here's a list of their names, saidly no English page:
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Az_amerikai_polg%C3%A1rh%C3%A1bor%C3%BA_magyar_r%C3%A9sztvev%C5%91inek_list%C3%A1ja
First seven are generals.

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But not the speculation around the lack of his execution led to the stigma which labeled him as a traitor, although it was part of it.
Kossuth - as I mentioned - went to emigration, on August 12 he sent a letter to Görgey explaining why he gave up the power to him and with more reproach, on the 17th he crossed the Ottoman border with his brain grinding over the events of the past year, and not a month later he sent his so called Letter of Vidin to the diplomats in England and France, to the emissaries and ambassadors of the Revolutionary Government still staying in foreign countries, so they have something to ask help with from the western powers. His goal was to demonstrate that not the weakness of arms but treachery led to the downfall of the Revolution, he wanted to give hope for a restart and explanation. The letter ofc reached Hungary too, probably was intended, so it was designed to revitalize and dispelling doubts in our strength. I read it and I also see a mind which tries to rationalize how they could lose from the sure position of '49's spring.
In this letter he recaps the events, and how Görgey sunk the morale of the army. How he managed to tie the officer's loyalty to himself, how they nurtured royalist sentiments, how they spread hopelessness, how they wasted lives and resources, how avoided combat when they should have and entered unnecessary fights when they shouldn't, how they conspired with the Peace Party, and how they continuously parleyed with the Russians. And as a closing accord he reached for military dictatorship, and how he pressured Kossuth with the help of several ministers to give up the governorship, and then laid down weapons before the Russians.
Kossuth was also surrounded with people who had little sympathy for Görgey, like Perczel and Dembinski, their voice was also heard, and many others who hopped onto the bandwagon and found faults in Görgey's decisions and moves throughout the whole War. Came the "what if" scenarios, which discussed up to this day, and almost as popular here like the similar exercises related to WWII, which Bernd is familiar with.
Following the years of the War Görgey being a traitor was a prevailing view, as a reply he wrote the aforementioned book, the Mein Leben und Wirken in Ungarn in den Jahren 1848 und 1849. This offered his side of the story which not just added shades for the question, but many veteran decided to absolve him and declare him as not traitor.

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I read in an essay that during the interwar period a cult was built around him, as a great leader of the army, they looked favorably his figure. After WWII the communist historiography dusted off the accusation. Their reason to do so was that they needed to present Kossuth as a socialist forerunner who ofc was infallible in his wisdom and his work had to be undermined by the inner enemy, the traitors, which against the communist regime in the early 50's also considered as the greates threat. So basically they created a historical analogy from their story, and justification for their own actions.
Contemporary authors - at least those whose works used for Wikipee and newspaper articles - seem to accept Görgey's side more, even might without criticism. The everyday people... they don't give a fuck about the whole thing ofc, they are uninterested in the topic, those who dabble in history are usually nationalistic and frequently against Görgey - tho his character offers nationalists something to be proud of.
I think he was a talented commander but he didn't have the time to mature into the role of a general. It is hard to judge his real quality due to all the factors outside the influence of his person, and he only had a year to shine. As being a traitor, I do not believe that, even if he made a deal with the Russians, a capitulation for an amnesty, and he certainly wasn't a methodological saboteur, an agent of the Habsburg Court. Against the overwhelming odds which the Russian intervention presented, the chance of victory was minimal. And the little what we had was threw away by the blunders of other leaders (such as Dembinski). Laying down the weapons was the only thing to do.


I think the topic of '48-49 would deserve some posts, since it's one of the most important event in the modern history of Hungary, an arch and catalyst which led from the Reform Era to the Compromise and Dualism. Checking out the war in a bit more detail not concentrating on Görgey but follow other fellows a little. Examining the army maybe.


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I feel like Eastern Europe has so much history over it that people barely know or talk about. So many heroes, tales and adventures have happened there. 

You could spend ages talking about its history. Could probably make 50 different TV shows over it. Even more

 >>/35376/
> Polish-Hungarian Friendship Day

Will you be giving a history post about it? Should be good.

 >>/35385/
> Eastern Europe has so much history
There were as much epic struggles, dramas, and tragedies like everywhere else. But probably as we go back in time they will become less and less well documented especially compared to Western Euro happenings. Völkerwanderung is a great mystery for example.

Well I could write episodes of Polish-Hungarian friendship, about the threads the two country tied together with. The day I think is just an agreement. Some importance it has but I'm not sure what past event it commemorates.
> history post
I'm not sure how historical what I write, I'm working from primary and secondary sources (or in case of articles they can be tertiary basically) and sometimes I try to seek a consensus, sometimes I put those ideas forward which I feel right or more interesting or less discussed (I liek alternative explanations and I try to leave the more fantastic behind and make the rest agree somehow with the more accepted and established), and sometimes I filter things through my own interpretation like here  >>/35367/ in case of that list or routs and when I return to that list for a comment - I've never seen it drafted or worded like that but for me it makes sense in my explanation the easiest.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing bs here, if you check out the topics (eg. in Wikipedia) you'll find the factual conformity. What could be different is the conclusions, which even historians like to sell theirs as facts and it's even more frequent that a historian arrives to a conclusion - or a hypothesis - and the next one uses that as a fact to build his own onto that, and sometimes they use a conclusion - or hypothesis - so many times in this fashion that all will think it's a non-disputable fact. And it becomes a historical dogma noone dares to question..




 >>/35407/
It isn't surprising. By that time the Ottomans were in decline and their threat to Europe/Christianity was very little to none. Poland was dismantled by three powers not one of them the Turks. They had their independent movements, I think chiefly against Russia, and after their failed tries many had to fled, they went toward Hungary where they weren't bothered much - Hungarian nobility and intellectuals (whom mostly from the nobility) understood and sympathized with them - but they could only stay in exceptional circumstances (like the 1848-49 Revolution and War of Independence) since the Habsburgs had extradition agreement with the Romanovs. One refuge were the Ottomans.

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So let's talk briefly about Polish-Hungarian relations, the possible sources the sympathy and friendship between the two nation.
Our history intertwines since the formation of our statehood. In the beginning it was on the level of foreign politics, the Piast and Árpád dynasties strengthened their relation via marriages. Very notable example is our king Saint Ladislaus (ruled: 1077-1095) whose mother was Polish princess. Due to the inner struggles of the House of Árpád, his father prince Béla with his brothers had to fled the country and found safe refuge in the Piast Court, he even led an army of theirs against Pomerania.
Back then the Hungarian dynastic politics had four chief partners: the HRE (with Bohemia), Poland, Kiev and Byzantium. There were other relations, and webs of marriages, but these were the main ones. With the decline of Byzantium, and the Mongol conquest this reduced to the first two, though important marriages were bargained with powers further to west, which helped the Anjou's onto the throne of Hungary after the House of Árpád died out ont he male line.
The strategical nature of our relation with the Polish Kingdom remained intact. First with Bohemia they created the V3 (Congress of Visegrád) which was an alliance and a commercial agreement between the three rulers. Then Anjou Louis I inherited the Kingdom of Poland, and our states formed a personal union. His daughter, Jadwiga followed on the throne (she was canonized recently, another saint of the Polish-Hungarian relations), and her marriage made possible for the Jagiellonians to acquire the kingship. They become not just important partners for the Hungarian rulers, but gave three kings for us as well, one died tragically on the battlefield of Mohács in the struggle against the Ottomans.

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This struggle became a common cause of ours for the coming centuries from the appearance of the Ottomans on the Balkans. With our country torn three after the fall of Buda (1541) the Polish foreign politics dealt with two Hungarian states, the Kingdom with the Habsburgs, and the Principality of Transylvania with her changing ruling families. The relation of the Princes to the Sublime Porte varied during this era, some were more independent than others, some had better relation with the Habsburgs, some dreamed of winning the Kingdom for themselves. One however was approached by some representatives of the Sejm, they offered Anna Jagellion's hand in marriage to Stephen Báthory, and with her the power over of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. After him, the Princes saw the relations with Poland even more important if it's possible, but more importantly the interactions between the two nations (if I'm allowed to write this term somewhat anachronistically) started to change, from high politics it moved onto lower levels as well.
Gonna continue from here.

 >>/35302/
> Instead of holding the line in front of the main attacking force of the Emperor, and backing toward the marshalling area, he chose to evade instead and started a march toward north east. While his move weakened the direct defense of the new center of rally it was quite unexpected for the imperial command. They sent a considerable force onto his chase, in case he breaks into Austrian lands, or threatens logistically important settlements and supply lines. Görgey basically stopped the enemy's advance at the region of the Danube just the same.
This sounds foolish at first, why would he retreat from the enemy's main invasion corridor (which I guess, after the Danube was secured, that the next Habsburg target was to cross the Tisza and get to Debrecen) and move away from it to the less relevant highlands? But it seems the Austrians were also dazzled by this foolishness and played along, so they were more foolish. Or maybe they in this case they thought their logistics would not allow a push that far with Komárom still untaken, and/or cared about facing armies more than catching territory. How much more progress could they have made on the main invasion corridor if they had just ignored Görgey? From the map it seems Jablonowski and Csorich could have instead fought in the push o the Tisza. Or maybe moving everyone on this corridor would leave them vulnerable to a a flanking attack by Görgey coming down the highlands.

 >>/35367/
> 3. constitutional monarchy without the Habsburgs, fuck them;
And which other noble house could take the throne?

 >>/35371/
> The most recent version of the speculation is, that after he fell into Russian captivity the Tsar threatened the Emperor, that they will bring Görgey to Russia as a badge of their triumph if they don't give him amnesty
This Russian favoritism is really intriguing. He couldn't provide any aid to the Tsar while living in Klagenfurt, maybe return to Hungary to fight the Habsburgs again if another revolution were to happen at a time Russia were hostile to Austria, but that would be an unlikely combination of events and out of mind in a time the Kaiser and Tsar were friendly. Was it just respect from his earlier negotiations to fold to Russia?

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 >>/35674/
> northern by-pass
I will look into his memoirs about this. But.
I know there were considerable amount of reinforcement in the Highlands, and maybe even supplies. The towns were traditionally rich (originally Saxon - liek Zipsers - and Swabian settlers founded mining towns) and important industrial centers. At first Görgey wanted to break the siege of Lipótvár which was held by 1500 patriot against Simunich's 5000 men, from there they could have reached Pozsony easily (earlier the seat of the Diet, due to it's closeness to Vienna), or move to either Komárom or Győr, all three cases would landed them behind the imperials and on their supply lines.
The imperals also could hope for some popular support in the Highlands (or Upper Hungary),  among the tót part of the Northern Hungarians those who speak Czech funny a priest named Hurban recruited irregular force against the Revolution this movement was way less considerable than today the Slavic nationalists of Northern Hungary try to imply, the main body of the tóts sided with the Hungarian revolutionary government.
So Görgey had to be kept in check. Windisch-Grätz sent a force from his troops, which made his army weaker. He also wanted to concentrate more units onto the Great Plain, most notably Schlick's, but at that moment when Görgey left, Simunich's too. I read that the imperial high command didn't have reliable intel nor about the strength of our forces neither their exact location this made W-G cautious (maybe even confused).

> And which other noble house could take the throne?
I dunno if they had any plans on that, or who wanted to elect whom. In practice Kossuth became governor and weren't much talk about coronation.
Our kingdom without a king can work fine. The Holy Crown is the embodiment of the kingship, and the source of royal power. During the middle ages a tradition formed which is now called Holy Crown Doctrine (I'm not aware an official translation of the name, it contains/contained both customary and written law) which treats the Crown basically both as an abstract idea (with notions such as the will of the people) and as a legal person (such as the owner of the crown lands - this part can be familiar). From 1446 in the absence of a king (during interregnums for example) a governor (gubernator) gets elected and rules instead the king, the legal basis and the practice of this rule was regulated on ad hoc basis, there weren't explicit guidelines for that I think, but generally were under the supervision of the Diet/legislation (as the will of the people and the will of the Crown).
The kingless kingdom works as a republic with a "civilian" at the helm. In case of Kossuth, he was called a governor-president - which probably made many peeps twitchy, projecting a republican turn. Anyway keeping the kingdom in our case is a question of tradition and the continuation of a thousand year old legitimacy.
As a nice touch, the Prime Minister of the first "responsible" government as they called it responsible to the Parliament not the king took an oath to the Holy Crown. They took it seriously.
Picrels: first and last governors.

 >>/35674/
> This Russian favoritism is really intriguing.
Indeed.
I dunno what the Russian leaders had seen in keeping him around. Sure it quickened the end of the war and spared many life on all sides, but was that important to them? Some prestige, the capitulation meant, for the Tzar, but was that much? Well Haynau fumed about it at least, maybe the Russian generals enjoyed rubbing it in or something. Did they respected him? We have no insight into their thought process, no written source historians now about.

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 >>/35517/
With Báthory quite a few Hungarians arrived to Poland, nobles, officials, priests, scientists, artists, chiefly to help him, but he also acted as a maecenas. It is a safe bet to assume with previous "exchanges" of rulers a certain amount of Hungarians went to Poland, and Poles arrived to here. But they were from the upper echelons of society can't really consider them as relation of the two people.
This relation started in the late 17th century, when a movement rose in our kingdom which simplistically can be called as anti-Habsburg. It had religious taint as well, but chiefly was a centralization-decentralization struggle. On one level the court pursued absolutist notions, on the other they wanted to integrate our kingdom into their empire, rule it via the empire's administration and not as a separate state. The background for all that was the receding Ottoman grip on the occupied third of the country. In the struggle the so called kuruc movement formed, and it culminated in the 1703-11 Rákóczi War of Independence, and the first dethronement of the Habsburgs (Rákóczi Ferenc II was offered the Crown by the Diet, he refused he was fine with the "dux et princeps" titles, interesting fact: as a foreshadow of 1848 and the disintegration of feudal ties, they also introduced universal taxation). Now the fighters of the kuruc side - from the lowly peasants to the highest nobility - often found refuge on Polish lands, where they were welcomed fairly and allowed to reorganize and put together new ventures.

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Then in the 18th century, the dice turned, and Poles found themselves in the pickle. By the end of the century their state ceased to exist. The official political ties lost entirely between the two countries, but those who were persecuted in Poland, or on the ex-Polish lands could find safety in the Hungarian Kingdom. Hungarian intellectuals - especially those who were influenced by the new ideologies of the Enlightenment era - followed the events of the neighbour, articles and books were written about Polish topics, in poetry the motif of the Friendship appeared for the first time. Kościuszko was held in breddy high regards and after the failure of the Uprising he led, many rebel were hidden here.
During the November Uprising (1830) the Hungarian counties collected donations and offered monetary support. Some went to Poland and joined the military to actively participate. Our leading politicians and personalities of the Reform Era openly gave voice of their views on behalf of the Polish cause. When the end came, refugees of the Great Emigration were helped through the country so they could reach their western destinations. In '48-49 the veterans of this Uprising not just fought in our armies by the hundreds, but led them too. Until then they enjoyed safety in our country, despite Austria extradited Polish subversive elements to Russia, and they expected that Hungarian authorities arrest and deport such people. They didn't.

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During 1848-49 Poles participated actively both in the Revolution and in the following War of Independence. Their emigration greeted it wholeheartedly, they saw a possibility to expand the revolution to Galicia and then who knows what could follow (this is a rare "what if", what would have happened if we had won?, maybe we could have helped the revolution in Vienna?, and then the Italian uprising?, helping Poland gaining independence?). They organized the Polish Legion (Legiony Polskie) and every unit and every men were directed to there, this unit was used independently. Quite a few soldiers left the imperial army (Poles from Galicia served there) and signed up at ours.
Then in the next Polish uprising in 1863 the Hungarian emigration helped as they could, the homeland still suffered the opression which folled the revolution.
The Dualist Monarchy (Austria-Hungary) meant peace, and Poles came to find work. Some settled here, but most was just seasonal. Polish civil organizations formed here, Polish subdivisions were added to already existing ones (e.g. in the Alliance of Hungarian Lawyers). An important institution was formed, the Hungarian-Polish Society which became a focal point of deepening relations and organizing events. Ofc, these groups weren't just cultural or friendly, they often actively supported the cause of Polish independence.

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I would be interested if there was a closer camaraderie between Hungarian and Polish soldiers (who fought in the newly formed Polish Legion), but I've no data about it.
Trianon parted us, no more common frontier, Hungary became isolated, and our foreign politics concentrated on the revision of Trianon, while they tried to rebuild the destroyed and plundered country. Poland was a freshly restored state, it's land was a battlefield during the Great War, reorganizing, rebuilding was the chief immediate goals after the war. 
As for foreign relations, it was friendly, both country held the other important in what-if scenarios. Poland generally pursued peaceful relations with their neighbours, tho it had conflicts with Czechoslovakia, just like us, in case of an open conflict we could regard each other as allies. Since Poland saw the threat in the Soviet Union, Romania was a potential ally on that front, so they tried to sooth our conflict with them.
There were quite a few loose federal concepts in the minds of some politicians when they thought about the future of the Central Eastern European countries (sometimes supplemented with Italy in their calculations), but these theories were closer to fantasy than reality.
By '39 Poland expressed concerns that Hungary got too close to Berlin, but after the first revision we got back the eastern parts of the lost Upper Hungary, the common joy of restoring a part of the thousand years old border won over the bad feelings. Our leadership furthermore told to both Polish and German diplomats that we won't participate in a war against Poland and won't allow German troops through our lands either - our politicians referred to the traditional friendship. In secret we also warned Poland about the German attack.
Civilian ties weren't severed either, the Hungarian-Polish organizations worked on during this period. And some provided a mean when Hungarian volunteers wished to fight on the Polish side, right after the war broke out.

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In '39 September Poland was divided again. Soldiers and civilians en masse crossed our border and we helped them to flee and even allowed the Polish resistance to organize their army, despite German protests (although had to take some formalities as if we were doing something about it). Emigrants could set up civil institutions here, press, courts, schools, libraries, cultural events, all supported by the Hungarian state.
During the Warsaw Uprising a corp of ours - stationed in the neighbourhood - helped with food, ammunition and looked the other way when it came to Polish troop movements and flight.
After the German occupation the leading figures of the Polish emigration were arrested, some were executed at place, some ended in Mauthausen. During '44-45 were marched to Germany to forced labour. I think the Jews from Poland - some thousands arrived - were transported to Auschwitz.
After the war most returned to Poland, but some settled at us.

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Again the two countries were cut off form each other and the tourism in the following one and a half decade were basically non-existent, so beside politics there weren't much contact between the two nations. But the events of 1956 showed the living sympathy and camaraderie between us. For the similar societal background both nation reacted similarly to the forced stalinization, in '56 first the Poles had an uprising in Poznan, then for the popular demand a softer government was installed in Poland by the Soviet. Our protests in October were organized as a sympathy movement toward the Poles, and these protests turned into the Revolution and then and independence war. Polish reaction followed, they also held protests in solidarity.
From the 60s our economy became more free, here people even could buy certain western goods. The whole Block everyone came here to do their shopping, among them Poles. But Poland offered a more liberal cultural and intellectual atmosphere, displays of modern art and cinematography, so people went there on holidays, Poland meant a window to the world. By the '80s the "underground" opposition also had ties, risky documents and books were published in the other country, for example documents of '56 in Poland, but documents of Katyn in Hungary.
After the regime change we remained on the same course, NATO, EU. The V3 was resurrected again, and now it's V4. Tourists come and go, and our workers do their job together in Western factories if the choose to move there. We have streets named after Polish people and places, statues and monuments in commemoration of past events. We have this Friendship Day, and some official gestures always made (e.g. Orbán when won the election, as a PM he visited officially Warsaw first).

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As a summary we can say that the friendship between our nations is a modern thing, despite the millennia old relations, which actually didn't went further than any two neighbouring medieval countries' did. But certain circumstances in those times denied real enmity from formation.
Between our countries a formidable and well defined border stretched, the Carpathians, which prevented convenient border conflicts, petty raids. Settlements up there were few, far, and small, not worth the effort. Our rare conflicts therefore had different reasons, and different theaters, the Bohemian throne was such a cardinal point for example.
On the other hand we had similar enemies. Both country lay along the east-to-west/west-to-east highway, as obstacle to any expansions from these directions. German hammer fell on us both not on one occasion, and had to fight against various eastern neighbours, most notably had to suffer from Mongol-Tatar invasions, campaigns and raids. Although we had the Carpathians as a nice cushion from the east, while Poland is entirely open, another highway run through our country, from the south, south-east. First Byzantium, then the Ottomans were the anvil when the aforementioned hammer fell, and ofc their roles changed, often had to suffer the punches from the powers of the south, where the Ottomans in the end became a common enemy for us and the Poles.
Tho I have to add, during medieval times certain societal characteristics developed - such as the highest percentage of nobility and it's consequences - which allowed and caused similar mentality to evolve.
So the rivalry eluded us but suffering from similar fate - losing independence, suffering from similar societal backwardness - created mutual sympathy and understanding. Giving mutual assistance was the next step, and the common cause and more importantly the common struggle finished up forming the friendship.

Even today we are walking in the same shoe, have to jump the same obstacles, licking the same arses, eating the same turd sandwiches. We have similar reactions to events, similar interests which influences these reactions. Not many issues we could clash about. We have to kinda watch each other backs too.
Many of our people perhaps don't care, but many other still keeps the sympathy alive.

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The armed force of the great Soviet Union liberated our country under the oppression of the German fascists, smashed to pieces of the lords' and capitalists' antipopular state power, opened the way of democratic development before our working people. The Hungarian working class in alliance with the labouring peasantry, gained power in fierce struggle against the masters and defenders of the old establishment, with the magnanimous help of the Soviet Union rebuilt our war torn country. With the lead of our working class, hardened in the decades long struggles, enriched by the experience of the 1919 Socialist revolution, and relying on the Soviet Union, our people began to lay the foundation of Socialism, and our country is on her way toward the Socialism, following the road of people's democracy. The materialized results of this struggle and country building labour, the fundamental changes in our country's economical and social structure is expressed in, and the route of the further development is marked by: THE CONSTITUTION OF THE HUNGARIAN PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC.
- The preamble of the XXth law of 1949.

From 1950 to 1991 20th of August was the holiday of this constitution (tho in 1990 and maybe in 1989 it wasn't really celebrated I assume). Today I wish to explore this document I'm not sure what I'm going to post, but this is kinda mandatory celebratory, so here it is.


 >>/39418/
Exactly.
Beside the whole thing was more or less a copypaste of the Stalin Constitution of 1936. Yet to investigate. Yesterday I started to read the whole thing, making some notes, but only got to half of it. It's not difficult or too long, but had to and wanted to do other thins beside.
We have a long weekend so who knows.

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Let's make a quick comparison between our 1949 Constitution and the 1936 Soviet one.
We should start at the Chapters:

1949 Hungarian
See pdf related. It's in Hungarian, I came across a link that promised an English version but after download I saw - despite the title - it's the 1989-91 one, the modified from the regime change. Oh well.
Preamble
I. The Hungarian People's Republic
II. The Social Order
III. The Highest Organs of State Authority
IV. The Highest Organs of Government
V. The Local Organs of State Authority
VI. The Judicial Organization
VII. The Procurator's Office
VIII. The Rights and Duties of Citizens
IX. The Principles of Elections
X. Arms, Flag, Capital of the Hungarian People's Republic
XI. Closing Provisions

1936 Soviet
Link: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/1936toc.html
I. The Organization of Society
II. The Organization of the State
III. The Highest Organs of State Authority of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
IV. The Highest Organs of State Authority of the Union Republics
V. The Organs of Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
VI. The Organs of Government of the Union Republics
VII. The Highest Organs of State Authority of the Autonomous Soviet Republics
VIII. The Local Organs of State Authority
IX. The Courts and Procurator's Office
X. Fundamental Rights and Duties of Citizens
XI. The Electoral System
XII. Arms, Flag, Capital
XIII. Procedure for Amending the Constitution

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Ours starts with the Preamble, the Soviet one in the link has none. But has plenty other discrepancies at first blink, these however chiefly comes from the fact that the Soviet Union was a differently organized state with subordinated Republics and Autonomous Republics, in fact the II. Chapter is this, the list of these states. And this type of organization leads to the redundancy in chapters. Therefore:
Su I. = Hun I. and II. - these two were divided for some reason maybe just for creating new Chapters because in themselves they are fairly short, especially the firs one.
Su II. - contains the reason for the following couple of chapters
Su III. and IV. and VII. = Hun III.
Su V. and VI. = Hun IV.
Su VIII. = Hun V.
Su IX. = Hun VI. and VII. - again maybe to generate more chapters, so their number can go beyond X, making it more similar to the other.
Su X. = Hun VIII.
Su XI. = Hun IX.
Su XII. = Hun X.
Su XIII. - this isn't equal to Hun XI., these measures are tucked among the laws in the case of ours and didn't get their own chapter. The Hun XI. Chapter is some lines about the Constitution itself, definition, scope, when and how it comes to effect, this sorta thing.
To be honest when translated the chapters I could have copypasted more titles but even like this we can see they are the same.

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Now I haven't read through the 1936 Constitution, just read a few lines in there. I could see it's fairly the same, at some places it was copypasted, some lines were redrafted (I've no idea why, wouldn't make a difference), I did not read enough to find anything meaningfully different.
Judging by the general tone we could mistake these two with a constitution of a more or less actual democracy of our relatively free world.

But here's a fun detail.
There's some socialist gibberish in ours, here's one I translated:
The Hungarian People's Republic relies on the conscious labourers' organization to administer its functions. In order to defend the order of the people's democracy, to take an increased part in the socialist development, to widen the cultural education, to realize the people's rights, to nurture the international solidarity, the workers can establish trade unions, democratic woman, youth, and other mass organizations, and combine these forces into the democratic People's Front. The close cooperation and democratical unity of the industrial, agricultural, and intellectual workers is materialized in these organizations. The leading force of the state and societal activity is the working class, which relies on the democratic unity of the people and led by its vanguard.
I tried to remain as literal as could, didn't allow much poetic liberty to myself.
And here's it's parallel from the Soviet, Chapter X. Article 126.:
In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to develop the organizational initiative and political activity of the masses of the people, citizens of the U.S.S.R. are ensured the right to unite in public organizations--trade unions, cooperative associations, youth organizations,' sport and defense organizations, cultural, technical and scientific societies; and the most active and politically most conscious citizens in the ranks of the working class and other sections of the working people unite in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks), which is the vanguard of the working people in their struggle to strengthen and develop the socialist system and is the leading core of all organizations of the working people, both public and state.
Oh yeah.


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Something related.
The "Last Words of the 13 Martyrs" - found it on Wikipedia with the note, that these most likely weren't their last words, according to eye witnesses they all went in silence. But where these quotes come from? Not sure, they say they were invented about three-four decades later. I don't think any of these lives in the public consciousness, never heard any of them. In school we sure don't learn them, and at home I somehow doubt it would be a regular thing to talk about the Martyrs of Arad.
But here they are:

Aulich Lajos:
''I served, served, I always served. With my death I will serve on. My beloved Hungarian people and homeland, I know, they understand this service."

Damjanich János:
We defeated death, because we were ready to face it anytime.

Dessewfy Arisztid:
Yesterday needed heroes, today martyrs. The duty towards my homeland commands it.

Kiss Ernő:
My God, will the youth of modernity whole men? Glorious saints of the Árpáds, watch over the Hungarian youth, so their hearts will be Christ's, and their lives their homeland's.

Knezić Károly
How curious, judge Haynau is a Christian and I am as well. Only the devil could shuffle the cards this much.

Láhner György:
Chirst's cross and the gallows are so similar. And my sacrifice is dwarfed by the divine sacrifice.

Lázár Vilmos:
Whose to blame for this fate of the Hungarian? At the base of Christ's cross matured the apostles to apostles, at the base of the gallows have to mature the Hungarian soul to revolutionary.

Leiningen-Westerburg Károly:
The world will wake up when sees the work of the hangman.

Nagysándor József:
It would be horrifying to think about passing now if I hadn't done anything in my life. I lay before my God with humility, that He made me hero, a true man, and good soldier.

Poeltenberg Ernő:
The enemy's furious revenge brought us here.

Schweidel József:
The world today is the world of Satan, where you get gallows for honor, and power for treachery. Just a real revolution, the new revolutionary people of the world can sweep away this screwed up world.

Török Ignác:
Soon I will stand before God's most supreme court. My life is just a tiny weight, but I know I always served only Him.

Vécsey Károly:
God gave me my heart and soul, which were blazing for the service of my peope and homeland.

Translating these lines gave me a bit of window of thinking, and some really out of the place, especially the one attributed to Schweidel sounds like something Marxists would make up later. But since I obviously didn't know these people in person and now very little about their character I can't really tell if they would say something along these lines at any point of their lives.

National holiday, yay.
Due to the elsewhere mentioned busyness I couldn't prepare anything. But I still want to commemorate it at least for a post, gonna see if I can scrape something together which can't be just read on Wikipee.

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One thing that rarely gets mentioned in relation to the revolution of '56 is the Warsaw Pact and Hungary's place in the organization.
In 53 with Stalin's death and Khrushchev emergence meant some changing - in tiny steps - in Soviet politics, and their lackeys in Hungary had to practice self-criticism. In place of the Stalinist dictator, Rákosi Mátyás, Nagy Imre was placed who changed focus from the forced industrialization to the immediate needs of the population. But a year later with the threat of rearmament of Western Germany and her integration into the NATO the reigns - held in Moscow - tightened again, and now Nagy found himself as a target that he let the country onto the road of dangerous rightist deviations, instead of preserving the peace with the enhancement of armament production.
There was the question of Austria and her becoming neutral in the near future, when Red Army units have to leave the country. The ones stationed here were here because they had to secure the supply lines to the ones in Austria. If those leave, "ours" will lose the reason why they are here. It will be so nice to finally not be occupied.
But in late '54 Moscow gently nudged Czechoslovakia and us, to initiate a conference to discuss the matter of the safety of the Eastern Block, where the matter of setting up a new defense treaty can be discussed. After about half a year of preparation the Warsaw Pact was set up finally. By that time Nagy was out of office, and Rákosi was back in. Forced armament was restarted - they agreed on setting up an army in the size of 470 000 soldiers -, and after the leaders of country and the Hungarian People's Army expressed their fears that Hungary is defenceless without the protection of the great Red Army, an Air Army (actually one air division) and a mechanized infantry division from Austria was settled beside the already present mech. inf. division.
Our role in the Warsaw Pact wasn't that big, but might have been strategically important(-ish). First we had to establish an airbase for Soviet bombers which could target objectives in Southern Germany, Italy and Africa from there. During a war games they also simulated an offensive in the direction of Zagreb, Ljubljana and Trieste, which suggests our troops would have participated opening up a way to the Adria and toward Italy (at least in the plans of '55, later probably everything changed).
I have to interject here and note that during another joint army exercise the imagined situation was that the westerners would start with the aggression, using nuclear and chemical weapons as well, and the forces of the Eastern Block would disarm the attack and response with a counterattack, also with nuclear and chemical weapons beside the conventional ones. The containment of the entering enemy would happened in operational depth (not at the front), then would came the encirclement and their destruction.
But by the second half of '56, winds changed again, a thaw came in international politics, talks started between the US and the SU, armament and the army became less important again - the number of enlisted was determined in 115 000 men. Was that a promise of freedom again? Maybe. People could interpret it as such. But the reality was the Soviet Union couldn't let out of the line (or - Marx's forbid! - leave) one of the members of her Warsaw Pact just one year after of its formation.


 >>/40701/
We've three national holidays March 15, August 20, and October 23.
We're celebrating all with mandatory day off and listening speeches about daily politics shoehorned onto these illustrious days. On August 20 we also enjoy fireworks, being the birthday of our country. March 15 and October 23 are bittersweet, since they were designated to celebrate revolutions, since they were successful, they signaled the beginnings of something great, our freedom, but they are tied to the independence wars which failed and led us back to our shackles (and scaffold). We don't do anything special beside (well there are official celebrations, see the speeches above), families themselves ofc enjoy the additional free time how they wish, for example relatives gathering together for some jamboree or whatever. Here cakes may be served, but no special type of cakes for the occasion.


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Maybe Hungary thread is the best place for this. I've read this some time ago from some Russian-language blogger. Quote:

'About Tolkien relation to Hungary:
1. Gondor main city is called White City. Hungarians had several cities with name Fehérvár - White City. One of them - ancient Hungarian capital (Székesfehérvár - "white capital")
2. Anduin river alludes to Danube. Hungarian "White City" Székesfehérvár is related to Danube as "White City" Minas-Tirith is related to Anduin. Bot placed at the west of river, there are plains between river and city, and mountains located at west of the city.
3. In Tolkien times, even English schoolkid could answer to question: "Name kingdom without king, where regent is ruling" - Hungary. Regent Denethor literally based on Horthy - he too had two sons, one of them died.
I don't state that Gondor is literally Hungary, but Tolkien surely was inspired by Hungary.
And 1 - someone may remember Serbian Belgrad. But that city was Hungarian in Middle Ages and was called Nándorfehérvár.
Tolken, as many others, admired legendary Budapest art-deco* and based "Numenorean style" on it. Especially "bird" theme, specific to Danube.'

 >>/42439/
I dunno if Hungary was used some kind of a template for Gondor, or at least some characteristics were used. I heard comparisons with Rohan due to the horse centered lifestyle there. And ofc seen that map which projects Europe and Middle Earth upon each other and stretched so Mordor falls together the Carpathian basin.
In mirror translation Fehérvár = White Castle; Belgrade is sames ofc, I'm breddy sure no surprises there for you. We had three White Casles/Fehérvár during our history, two you already mentioned (Székesfehérvár, Nándorfehérvár), the third one in Transylvania, Gyulafehérvár.
Székes = place with the ruler's seat
Nándor = Bulgars at the Danube
Gyula = a rank and/or name; we aren't exactly sure, it seems a line of rulers of Transylvania had this title/name during the 10-11th centuries.
Note: castle = vár; city = város.
Anduin = Duna? Could be.
That governor thing could also be true.
I'm gonna ask people who are more familiar with Tolkien's complete work.

 >>/42439/
Mordor would make more sense as being Hungary, it's situated in an open plane surrounded by mountain ranges, they border many eastern nations(Turks), they are landlocked(heh), there are old castles from Numenorians within Mordor(like how Hungary had castles built by Germans) and Orcs are corrupted elves(like how Hungarians are Asiatic Europeans).


 >>/42444/

Also: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/M%C3%A1gol

> Mágol is one of the early languages of Tolkien. It was said to be of Hungarian style and Tolkien worked on it around the years he was writing The Hobbit or earlier.

> In The Notion Club Papers Michael Ramer mentions several Ungric words like Shomorú (Hung. szomorú 'sad'[3]) 'Saturn'[4], Dalud dimran, Eshil dimzor[5], a waterfall on the world Ellor Eshúrizel [6], Gyönyörü, Emberü [7] , Gyürüchill 'Saturn' [8] 

And  >>/42448/

> Sometime later he considered making this language Orkish; he marked this page with the name "Orcish" but striked it out[1] which means that he rejected this idea.[2]

 >>/42460/
> Mágol is one of the early languages of Tolkien.
Maybe in the beginning he reached out to languages that he perceived very foreign but still with abundantly available resources (so he didn't search for a barely documented language in the jungles of Africa), but then when he started to create languages seriously he stuck with what he actually knew.
On that site in the article of the Black Speech they quote Tolkien, that he decided to use agglutinative grammar for it. Below it is written that linguists could draw analogy with ancient Hurrian.


 >>/42439/
 >>/42460/
I run the original idea through a couple of my pals who are Tolkien fans. One said Tolkien refused analogies. I dunno how true is this - my pal knows better - but getting inspirations and even cutting out motifs straight up from history doesn't mean he wanted to pair up the ethnicities, cultures, and states of his fantasy world with real life parallels.

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 >>/42503/

> One said Tolkien refused analogies

Considering that Tolkien wasn't so primitive he surely wouldn't do direct analogies to anything - otherwise his books would be satire, not epic.

> inspirations and even cutting out motifs straight up from history

It is also interesting question: can you write something big and (somewhat) realistic without inspiration and allusions from real life? When you construct imaginary world that looks like real, you still subconsciously use something from history or your experience (that is also mostly history).

And to add to the story - here is another article (translated by google, sadly), about mapping of Tolkien world to real things. Author quotes some person about pre Ice Age Europe (map is similar to Middle Earth) and about Austria-Hungary as inspiration (because Tolkien fought in WW1).

sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://ttolk.rup%3D4760">https://translate.google.com/translatesl=ru&tl=en&u=http://ttolk.rup%3D4760


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 >>/42508/
I concur it is impossible to imagine something that isn't based on our knowledge from the real world.

Yeah, that's the map I used to see (on imageboards). I've to problems with that:
1. Where did Tolkien get a map about Europe from 20-30 000 BC?
2. That big turd across the western part of Carpathian basin which is non-existent irl, and never was there.
The linked article says (from Google translate, but DeepL's translation is similar):
> The only exception to the rule on Byrd's maps was the continuation of the Scandinavian Mountains through Denmark to northwest Germany (to end up with Tolkien's Misty Ridge).
I guess it's about changing the geography of the ridge coming from Skandiland being the sole edit on the map. It is not.

I do agree creating a political statement that condemns the communism from the work of Tolkien is silly, maybe even ridiculous. But I can't agree with the conclusion, the explanation why would Tolkien equal Mordor with these parts is contrived.


 >>/42511/
I know little about the world. I read Lord of the Rings, and few pages from the Hobbit, but not all of his mythology or legendarium.

 >>/42508/
Now that I'm thinking why neither the commie analogy, nor the Carpathian basin fits is that the Hobbit is a child's tale, and LotR is pure escapism. He does not want to dwell on the issues of his day and age, but find a fantasy world where the idealized form of the good old Victorian era morality and behavioral patterns apply.
What clear is that he rejected the ugly urbanite life with the dirty gray factories with overworked proles and slavedriver bosses, while glorified pastoral countryside villages with comfy cottages and lazy glutton simpletons.

 >>/42503/
He refused analogies to contemporary issues such as politics(he didn't like it when Sauron and Mordor were compared to Communism). But I think he did freely acknowledge inspiration from mythologies and folklore, even from the books of other people.

 >>/42515/
> He does not want to dwell on the issues of his day and age, but find a fantasy world where the idealized form of the good old Victorian era morality and behavioral patterns apply.
What clear is that he rejected the ugly urbanite life with the dirty gray factories with overworked proles and slavedriver bosses, while glorified pastoral countryside villages with comfy cottages and lazy glutton simpletons.

Pretty much, he described himself as an unconstitutional monarchist and was quite opposed to modernisation and globalisation.

 >>/42516/
Yeah he is quite pre industrial age romantic.

> He refused analogies to contemporary issues such as politics(he didn't like it when Sauron and Mordor were compared to Communism). But I think he did freely acknowledge inspiration from mythologies and folklore, even from the books of other people.

You're right, he didn't want his books interpreted as something political. Probably he saw his books above these things.

 >>/42516/
 >>/42517/
You guys are Tolkien enthusiasts?

> You're right, he didn't want his books interpreted as something political. Probably he saw his books above these things.
Yeah I think he wanted something that takes us out from the realities of our world and brings us to a magical place. And that's about it, it's escapism.

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March 15 is here again, national holiday, haven't even checked what's going on in the media, the country is in lockdown mode, daddy government took away the freedom lollypop from his kids and won't give it back until we don't do as we were told and get a vaccine.
Anyway, it's 1848-49 time again, the time we take back our freedom and independence. Or not.

Often discussed as a missed opportunity - to conclude the struggle early on with a positive outcome (positive for us) - is the battle of Schwechat, or rather the small window previously the battle, when an armed rebellion broke out in Wien and we could have moved in to help them to rekindle the Austrian revolution, end the Habsburg tyranny, and so on so forth.

But last thing first, let's take care of the battle in a couple of sentences. We had not 30000 men (but something like that) and 70 cannons, while the imperials 80000 men and 210 cannons. Which isn't entirely true since we didn't have to face the full force Feldmaschall Windisch-Grätz mustered together. He divided his troops in two, he sieged Wien and the rebels, and let Jelacic (Croat ban) handle us. I think this shows that his priority was to take back the imperial capital, and clench the rebellion asap. So what our troops faced was a somewhat larger army than ours, but not the full might of it - with the potential of more arriving fast.
Hungarian right achieved minor success with a bayonet charge, but the middle - consisting largely of militia and even peasants with scythes - was stuck and the artillery there dueled fruitlessly with the imperial one, and the left wing was late of forming up. Jelacic sent a group of cavalry to charge in the side of our middle. There Görgey (the military dictator of ours discussed above) was in command and he got an order for withdraw from the commander of the army. He obeyed but it didn't do much good for the morale. The untrained troops were confused by the artillery and the retreat, probably the approaching enemy also scared them, and the retreat turned into a disorganized flight. Coincidentally the left wing arrived just in time to stop the Austrian cavalry, still the battle couldn't be helped and our army left.
This happened on 1848 October 30.

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Here maybe I should put our revolution into European context, however it's a large ass topic, would be overkill, and I know very little about it so much research would be needed. Let's downsize the scope for a quick(ish) note. 
The Spring of Nations run through Europe, got the Habsburg court (ruled by kanzler Metternich instead emperor and king Goodinand the bit simple)  unprepared. They had troubles in Italy, but got into a long winded tug-of-war with the Viennese people, who also demanded social, economical, political changes. By the time the court decided to quench the Hungarian aspirations with arms and sent Jelacic into Hungary, the Viennese were already over two revolutions.
The Habsburg camarilla had enough confidence in Jelacic and the news that he was beaten at Pákozd in late September traveled slow, Latour, the Minister of War wanted to send the troops stationed in Wien to Buda (no Budapest yet) as a reinforcement to the Croat general whom he believed to be victorious (they even appointed Jelacic as a governor of Hungary). But the people sympathized with the Hungarian cause and essentially wanted to sabotage the troop movements in early October. On the 6th again an armed rebellion erupted, the court fled to Olomoutz, and Latour was lynched. Oh well. A gentleman named Auersperg moar liek Auersperger amirite was trusted with the task of restoring order.

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Meanwhile Jelacic retreated, sent the Croatian militias home, then stopped at Moson, where he waited for reinforcements. The army which beaten him followed, and reached the Austrian border on October 10th, after Jelacic finally decided to withdraw over. At Vienna Jelacic and Auersperg sat around waiting for more units heading from Bohemia and Moravia - who were already on their way from the 8th -, on the other side of the river Leitha the Hungarian army took positions, and their leaders started their debate what to do now. 
Many of the officers who previously served in the Habsburg army struggled with both moral and legal dilemma, it was one thing to defend the country on the order of a legal government from foreign aggression, but it's a different thing to go against the will of the ruler (it was October 3 when Jelacic was made governor, and our government was denied of recognition) and even attack his majesty's troops on foreign lands, whom weren't just some Croat rabble, but maybe even old comrades.
Back at Pest the legislation also was in debate, how to proceed further. There was no question if we support the revolution in Wien, and they were promised help, but the representatives believed the only legal basis for intervention would be the request of the Austrian Reichstag. They were asked if they want it, but they weren't too enthusiastic.
Móga, the leader of our army at the border, was hesitant, moved his unit over the river to Austrian land on 21th, then withdrew on 22th. The new government (I think in English it's something liek National Defence Committee) was headed by Kossuth, and he took the matter in his hands. With some troops he went to Móga, recruiting along the way. He arrived on 23rd or 24th. They held a council of war where everyone told his piece. The officers expressed their doubts, they pointed out the enemy's superiority both in quality and quantity - by that time Windisch-Grätz were at Hetzendorf, South East Wien. It turned out that the feldmarschall even sent a letter where he ordered the "imperial" officers to deny fighting. Móga gave a choice to his staff follow their conscience, only a very few stood aside. Then Kossuth drafted a reply to Windish-Grätz, which tl;dr said: "Fuck you!"
On the 28th they moved into Austria, and approached the enemy. The rest I already wrote.

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It's easy to see that for about two weeks there was the opportunity to move in, with the help of the Viennese rebels we could have sandwich the imperial troops, and beat them badly. Way earlier somewhere above ITT I wrote we could have caught Windisch-Grätz with his pants down, but actually we could only win when he - and more importantly his army - wasn't present.
There are no guarantees the battle would have went swell, but we could expect. The debate is largely revolves around "the should have, could have" nature of the possible early intervention. Just the same as what they did back in the day.
This is definitely one of the major "what if" nodes in the Revolution and War of Independence of 1848-49.

 >>/42944/
What exactly did the Viennese revolutionaries want? What was their program for the empire, and what would happen in practice to it if they won? Would they try to restore its unity? Would Russia step in and occupy both Hungary and Austria?

 >>/42954/
In short they wanted fairly the same things as us, breaking down the feudal structures. Abolish serfdom, equal taxation (nobles shouldn't enjoy exempt), equality before law (), change the absolutist governance to democratic one, probably ending censorship. What I know that nowadays - due to the prevailing ideological monopoly of liberalism (and to lesser extent socialism) - historical works usually shift the emphasis to these, but in these movements there were very strong nationalist component. Austrians were no different, they were motivated by the situation of the rest of the German people, and the question of unity was already on the table.
I'm gonna look these up, I'm curious, and we learn next to nothing about it.
Russia? Well the courts of Europe had this Holy Alliance which was basically reactionary gay club with the goal of quench revolutionary movements. So the Czar probably mulled over intervention, but just like our army at the border, he also wouldn't move without the invitation of a power which could be considered legitimate (the Austrian imperial court).

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 >>/42954/
Read a little and essentially what I wrote here  >>/42957/ with a couple of caveats. 
At the end of the 18th century, emperor Joseph II introduced some changes in the tone of enlightenment, toward abolishing serfdom. Revolutionaries wanted it in full, they also demanded constitutionality, and voting rights.
The people of Austria (I mean the original Austrian region, excluding the Slavic and other parts) were divided, the revolutionary population concentrated in Vienna, the countryside largely remained reactionary.
The revolutionaries were also divided into moderates and radicals. The bulk of the moderates were the university youth, whom wanted a university guard, an armed force of their own. The radicals were chiefly the workers, especially in the poorer quarters of the city. They wanted voting rights for everyone (men), while moderates were mostly fine with whatever (also I suspect the university youth also wanted to extend voting rights as wide as it was possible).
This division and different demands was exploited by the court. There were three revolutions. After the first one in March, the chancellor, Metternich was sacked, since he was the symbol of the absolutism, and the university youth was allowed to set up their Academic Legion as they called it, and they were entrusted the keep the peace in Vienna, which meant to keep the radicals quiet. This was an important move, the imperial army was too busy in Italy, where those guys fought for their freedom and independence, and the army was in no position to quench the revolution in Wien. So the court divided the revolutionaries, and based on their different interests, they used one part of them to check the others. As noted before, the Habsburgs used these differences of interests to keep in check the nationalities of their empire too.

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Lastly there was the question of unity of the Germans. The Austrian revolutionaries would welcome the Great German Unity. The problem was, they meant the whole imperial part of the Habsburg empire (which basically was everything sans Hungary), this the Italians and the Czechs especially did not like, not a bit. Anyway the imagined the united Germany will be led by Austria, and they elected the delegates to send to Frankfurt, into the German Reichstag.
Further problem was that the half of the new legislation consisted of Slavs, many of them did not even know German. Changes were enacted slow, the court also played for time. They gave less, especially in the question of voting rights. Then they wanted to abolish the Academic Legion. This led to the second revolution, when the masses pushed back, and tried to put things back on track. This was in May.
During the summer the work of the parliament drags slow, but they abolish robot (free work) and tethe, essentially ending serfdom. The court used this as if they were the ones who wanted to enact this, they were the ones who supported the cause of the serfs. This way they ensured their support.
In September Jelacic was sent to Hungary to take over the reign and restore order, and in October they wanted to redirect troops from Vienna to his camp. This triggered the third revolution, they essentially wanted to help us. There were previous events that build up the tension ofc. Firstly the "agents" of the court worked in the ministries of the new government (most notably Latour and Bach), and due to economic hardships, wages were cut, firing up the dissatisfaction of the labourers.
Essentially that's about it. There must be some details and nuances I'm not aware of.

 >>/43004/
> The Austrian revolutionaries would welcome the Great German Unity. The problem was, they meant the whole imperial part of the Habsburg empire (which basically was everything sans Hungary), this the Italians and the Czechs especially did not like, not a bit. Anyway the imagined the united Germany will be led by Austria, and they elected the delegates to send to Frankfurt, into the German Reichstag. 
> Further problem was that the half of the new legislation consisted of Slavs, many of them did not even know German.
So they could live with Hungarian independence but would clash with independence movements in Cisleithania. Wonder what they'd do to Galicia, though, it's too isolated. And pan-Germanism would bring them into conflict with other German states, which could then call Russian intervention.

 >>/43044/
They had the German Bund which essentially replaced the HRE after Napoleon. It was like weird EU with half the rulers having lands outside of it. Not just the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns , but the Danish and British monarchs too.
I know Bohemia and Moravia was in the Bund as part of the Austrian Empire. But not Hungary. While Bohemia was a kingdom technically, it was integrated into the imperial government. With Hungary the situation was different. When the Habsburgs gained the Hungarian crown in the 16th century (we had a couple of Habsburg kings before that) our country was in an unfortunate situation when it was torn into three pieces, and lost lots of prestige and power. Since then a continuous power struggle went on, with a central role of the Transylvanian princes, who were often vassals of the Habsburgs themselves in some other way. Basically it was the question of centralization. The kings wanted to integrate the control of Hungary into the imperial administration - it was already subordinated to it anyway - but our nobility pulled the other end of the rope, struggling for more influence, preserving their ancient rights, sometimes bringing the whole thing to independence fights. So we remained more or less autonomous.
Even Joseph II's reforms were torpedoed by the Hungarian nobility (Joe weren't our king, only was elected, never crowned, he refused to do that, it would equaled for him as an acknowledgement that his lands aren't a whole unit).
Anyway for the Habsburgs being the emperor was the day job, being the Hungarian king was a hobby next to it. But a hobby they couldn't stop. The reality for the people was that the two countries were treated independently, that's what they felt, so Austrians didn't care what happens here (and they supported the changes here that could have helped them), since we were bunch of non-Germans anyway (despite the large number of burghers of German origin). But what they didn't spend any thought of the independence of the other lands, which were "Austrian" for them. I guess.

Btw I found an article about "what Austrians think of 1848". Essentially nothing. Not just for it's a footnote in their history, but because their identity isn't historically based, like ours, but it's built on their current rights and stuff like that. Their identity starts with their republic. It could very well be, that an average Hungarian learns more about the Habsburgs then them.







 >>/44259/
Quite a couple of lines worth of interest in that article.
It's not easy to piss into the wind. If one side of the media is overly loud, it's hard to be heard.
During first Fidesz govt. (1998-2002) they had very little to work with, the soc-lib media just flooded everything. They slowly built up since then, and after 2010 they bought up media outlets by the kilo. The soc-lib media screamed ofc, and they have some truth, on low level Fidesz has much pull (even I notice it), but large names mostly out of their reach and all the fortresses still stand.
Additionally there's the narrowcasts of the individuals on social media, gangin together often belching primitively all bunch of nonsense, but they all add to the message, which is getting repeated over and over, and that's the goal.
The third force is the western media. They easily pick up the socialist, and liberal narrative, supporting the "oppressed".
If the government relies on a weak structure of a coalition, it can be even more tough.
> we live the outrage culture.
This is the first time I see formulated the phenomenon like that, and it seems right. Strong emotional outbursts but little follow up with deeds. Big smoke, small flames.
> The former socialist countries have more antibodies...
Yeah, deep impressions were left.
Maybe gonna look into Slovenia's politics, then gonna post in the politics thread. Is an Eastern Block in the EU builds up slowly?


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Since it's the holiday of Hungarian statehood and Saint Stephen, whom this statehood originates from (well, traditionally), we could take a look at his work, at least partially.

The first work he did was done by the sword. (I say first but much of the works was done in parallel.)
It seems to me that when our Ancestors conquered the Carpathian basin, the kagans who lead the conquest and organized the settlement of the Magyars, Álmos and his son Árpád enjoyed great, centralized power. In the times of their subsequent heirs the power decentralized and the power various tribal leaders (often from the Árpád family or relative of theirs via marriages) grew. This could be measured chiefly from two facts: 1. they could lead their own campaigns against foreign lands; 2. they were able to set aside one kagan and elect a new one in his place. Hundred years after the conquest at the time of Stephen the Hungarian lands give the impression to me of a loose federation, where the kagan or Grand Prince was a desired title but had no real power over the chieftains.
Stephen had to fight with their relatives to the title, and then went on and made all the others bend the knee. I think one underrated and often forgotten reason why he had to show who's the boss is the religious differences. And I not mean that the other guys were pagan (which often mentioned in fact overstated), but because due to the relatively independent foreign politics chieftains could pursue, those with ties to Byzantium, the Bulgars, and Kiev often showed orthodogs influences while Stephen himself was oriented to Rome (and to HRE). I see one huge deficiency of Hungarian historiography is the effects of the Schism - and the long road that lead to that - onto the Hungarian politics.
Anyway the organization of statehood was started with the centralization of Hungarian lands. He was so successful in this, that for a long time the Árpáds held such amount lands in their own country, that all the other lords' holdings were dwarfed by it - this has no analogy in Europe.

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Second he laid down the bricks.
Both religious and lay administration was started by him. He created dioceses and counties, the first to help the job of the Church (whom helped his job in return, he was able to set up an archdiocese as well, at least one), the second ensured that his power reached all parts of his country. He established fortified centers in all the counties and ensured they are staffed with soldiers and they are provisioned well. He created semi-military semi-judical offices (comes), and appointed his loyal servants to lead each country, to defend the lands, and administer justice, or mobilize the local military when the king goes on campaigns.

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Lastly he did his job with the pen.
He wrote a book - or a book was written in his name - to his son Imre, which reflects the concept of statehood, state building, and government. The Admonitions is a "mirror for princes", as we know think of it, earlier was considered a book of law. I don't want to spend time on this, so I'm gonna just list the contents of each chapter:
1. About keeping the Catholic faith
2. To esteem the order of the Church
3. To honor the prelates
4. To honor the lords and warriors
5. About true judgement and patience
6. About admitting guests, newcomers; and patronizing them (this is about a kind of a settlers, traveling priests, knights, artists, artisans; exiles and those who look for new home and such)
7. About the weight of the Council
8. Sons should follow the ancestors
9. Keep praying
10. About piety, clemency and the other virtues

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He published two actual code of laws, these supported his practical work. I'm gonna present you with two long lists, with a couple of comments.
First Book of Law:
1. about the sanctity Church possessions (so no lay could rob/tax the Church lands)
2. about the power of bishops over Church possessions, settling relations with laymen
3. about witnesses and prosecutors of the Church (this is a short one, they have to be married, with family, and true followers of Christ)
4. similarly (this one takes the justice over priests from the hands of layman, what is Church business shall remain as Church business)
5. about the work of priests (laymen should help the work of theirs at all cost)
6. about the sanctity of private possessions and last will
7. about the sanctity of royal possessions
8. keeping the Sunday (mandatory rest)
9. similarly (ordering everyone to go to church on Sundays, except those who are guarding the fire - interesting implications this one has, I think I wrote about this already however)
10. keeping the fasts (like lent and such, the larger fasting periods)
11. keeping the Friday (the fast on Friday)
12. about those who die without confession (no Church funeral for him; except those who died suddenly so had not had the opportunity to get a priest)
13. keeping Christianity (priests should sanction those who lack in religious fervor, if anything fails these faithless have to face the royal court)
14a. about murder (110 gold fine, plus penitence by Church law)
14b similarly (killing someone by accident - 12 gold, plus penitence by Church law)
14c. about murdering slaves (slaves murdering slaves - the murdered have to be given in place of the murdered, plus penitence by Church law)
14d. similarly (freeman murders slave - give another slave in place or reimbursement, plus penitence by Church law)
15. about murdering the wife (reimbursement of the wife's family - with cattle - the amount depends on the social status of the murderer, plus penitence by Church law)
16. about the unsheathing the sword (a case of murder, die by the same sword; I kinda remember this one is more about forbidding blood-feud, or vigilantism, even tho the word of the law does not refer to these)
17. about perfidy (maybe treason; chopping a hand off, plus paying with cattle - various amount - plus penitence by Church law)
18. about freeing own slaves (everyone should have to right to free his own)
19. about visiting the church, and those who talk during mass/sermon (no talking during mass)
20. forbidding slaves as serving witness against or accuse freemen
21. freeing slaves of others (reimbursement for the king and the owner)
22a. enslaving the free (pay fine)
22b. similarly (those free who were enslaved but sought and found justice, no need to pay reimbursement for those who enslaved them)

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23. about those who employ warriors of others (it is verboten)
24. about those who admit the guests (like in the Admonitions) of others (guests should hold to the first contract they got)
25. about whipping those who are searching their own men (those who are looking for their or their master's escaped warriors or servants they shouldn't be harmed)
26a. about widows and orphans (granting rights to raise their kids and not forced into marriage, but if married she can't keep the property of her late husband, it should go to the children)
26b. widowers without kids can keep the possessions as long as she doesn't remarry, if dies, the properties goes to her relatives, without relatives those became royal property
27. bride kidnapping (giving back the grill to the fam, and pay reimbursement)
28a. having sex with servants of others (shaving bald and whipping; repeaters should be forced into servitude; if the grill dies of birth he has to give a servant in her place)
28b. about slaves having sexy tiem with the servants of others (sames, except he should be sold and his price split 50/50 if the grill dies in birth)
29. about those who marrying a slave-ette of an other (he should be enslaved too)
30. about those who just can't fight the dragon anymore and flee from their wives to abroad (wives should keep the possession, unless remarriage; those who return after their wives remarried, shouldn't take a new wife unless a bishop allows it)
31. about thieving women (who are married, the husband have to pay reimbursement, on third occasion she should be sold)
32. about arson (have to rebuild buildings, and pay reimbursement in cattle and gold)
33. about witches (giving them to the Church for education and punishment - such as fasting -; on second occasion has to be branded with the key of the temple, third occasion needs to face the judges)
34. about magi (the family of those whom they harmed should decide their fate; fortune tellers should be whipped by the Church)
35. about those who attack homes of others (depending on social status; comes' have to die by the sword, soldiers and plebs have to reimburse with cattle)

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Second Book of Law:
1. royal benefaction to the Church (every 10 village has to build a church and provide for them)
2. inheritance of royal benefaction (upgrading beneficium to feudum)
3. about slaves, and murderer of slaves (in case of a slave killing a slave of other, the master of the slave have to pay reimbursement, or sell the slave a share the price)
4. about slaves who murdered free (the master have to pay many cattle, or hand over the slave)
5. about freeing slaves of others (pay fine in the form of slaves)
6. about thieving slaves (fist occasion: give back the stolen goods, and pay five cattle or lose his nose; on second occasion come the ears; on third occasion he should die)
7a. about thieving freemen (if can pay for himself, if not he has to be enslaved, from here see the previous point)
7b. repeaters should face the same terms, but on third occasion have to be executed
8. about embezzlement (comes' have to pay double what they embezzled)
9. baseless appeal to the king (pay fine)
10. about the tyranny of the comes (he has to pay back double)
11. about lies (a specific one, if someone lies that the present he gave was taken from him by force, he has to pay it once more)
12. about the unsheathing the sword (die by the same sword)
13. about maiming (with the sword; suffer the same maiming)
14. about wounding (with the sword; pay the fine defined at murder)
15. about the simple unsheathing (not even wounding; pay the fine defined at murder)
16. about those slaves who are appointed to lead the court or a castle by the king (is word as witness have to be accepted as the comes')
17. treason against king and country (no refuge in the Church; have to be excommunicated; sames with those who knew about it but said nothing)
18. tithe (tax for the church, 1/10 of the crop/produce; if not payed, then 9/10 should be taken; stealing from the tithe should be reimbursed)
19. about lies told to comes' or other faithful servants (specific lie: he lost favor at the king)
20. about schemers (basically about trying to turn people against each other; have to pay double what his tongue worth; if talked to only one person, his tongue has to come out)
21. about thieves as witnesses (about courtiers; if they steal something have to treated as thieving freemen, but their witness testimony cannot be accepted from now on)

About this is the core of his work. And mine too.



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This was linked couple days ago.
A music video - playing on double speed or so - with the captions:
> HUNGARIANS EXPLAINING
> HOW ARE THEY EUROPEAN
posted by a person who appears to be a Northern Hungarian.
Shit is funny (ie humorous) on couple of levels.
1. Up to the late 19th century it was self-evident that we are Scythians.
2. Noone I ever met who tried to explain how we are Europeans, I don't think such conversational topic exist.
3. Turbo-Hungarians actually embrace the Turanic roots.
4. Politicians however fond of to cite European and Christian values as our core characteristics and our commitment to defend these for an European common good. One can hear similar from Orbán these days. But first these thoughts appeared in the 13th century after the Mongol Invasion in a letter from king Béla IV to the pope. Similar thoughts was put to paper by king Mathias I, this time due to the Ottoman danger, again addressed to the pope. Coincidentally just as Orbán does with EU, they also asked for monetary support from His Holiness.
5. Northern Hungarians are literally the same as us.
6. The same people who tell us we are Mongols also tell us we are Slavs.
7. Recently - this population genetic, haplogroup research - become popular to tell that Slavs are Scythians.

Tango Zulu's comments are real kc-tier. We might wanna invite him here.


> Tango Zulu's comments are real kc-tier.

his take is completely retarded, is that what "kc-tier" means?
he implies first that legacy mongol culture or genetics is what has preserved some peoples from the self-destructive poisons that have taken root across much of the "west", when it is obvious that late-stage democracy or "liberalism" is the main vehicle of the disease
did this idiot never realize that mongols also never conquered US/Canada? yet most of the poz seems to be spreading from here and into the rest of the "western" world. he also seems oblivious to the fact that his "cool" republic of "china" is more degenerate that the "commie" mainland, when mongols never set foot in the island while they did dominate most of current china at one point or another. the idiot also fails to notice that mongols conquered all of korea, yet the south is way more pozzed than the north, to a level comparable to japan
second the fool is trying to use that broken argument to argue that magyars are not descendants of mongols, meaning that they are not one of the heirs of his imagined "based mongol legacy". which is also retarded because hungarians are presently one of the most socially healthy countries in v4/ee together with russia, czechia, poland, ...
just fucking look at ukraine: basically the same genetics, historical legacy and social mores as (western) russia, but since the "maidan" coup very determined to become another baltic-like obsequious ass-licker of us-uk-eu so their politicians have been trying to shove globohomo down their population's throat, regardless of what the plebs actually think
tl;dr: "tango zulu" is a staggering moron, as can be expected from a twatter user that introduces himself thru flag virtue-signaling


 >>/44885/
 >>/44886/
well fuck re-reading it now i guess i was so fired up about his stupidity that i ended up writing incoherence myself
here is what that paragraph wanted to convey:
> did this idiot never realize that mongols also never conquered US/Canada? yet most of the poz seems to be spreading from here and into the rest of the "western" world. he also seems oblivious to the fact that his "cool" republic of "china" is more degenerate that the "commie" mainland, when mongols never set foot in the island while they did dominate most of current china at one point or another. the idiot also fails to notice that mongols conquered all of korea, yet the south is way more pozzed than the north, to a level comparable to japan

most of the poz seems to be spreading from US/Canada and into the rest of the "western" world and his "cool" republic of "china" is more degenerate that the "commie" mainland, which given his other remarks seems to imply he favors the more pozzed social system, yet he also acknowledges its "depravity", which is contradictory
mongols never set foot in the island while they did dominate most of current china at one point or another, yet the idiot fails to notice that mongols conquered all of korea, yet the south is way more pozzed than the north, to a level comparable to japan


 >>/44885/
> did this idiot never realize that mongols also never conquered US/Canada?
> yet most of the poz seems to be spreading from here and into the rest of the "western" world.
This supports his theory: where mongols step foot in, those places aren't (that) degenerate. US/Canada wasn't conquered, or even visited, ofc they are degenerate.
> he also seems oblivious to the fact that his "cool" republic of "china" is more degenerate that the "commie" mainland
He just compares Japan to others, and not the others to each other. Maybe he's on the same opinion as you, we just can't know.

 >>/44889/
> here is what that paragraph wanted to convey:
Yes, it's clearer that way. But the point still stands, that US and Canada weren't conquered, now they are degenerate.
I have to refer to the previous longer post where you wrote:
> it is obvious that late-stage democracy or "liberalism" is the main vehicle of the disease 
Mongols probably would have never came up with that, so if the Mongols had conquered the whole world, liberalism would had never emerged.



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 >>/44879/
> Aren't Hungarians a mix of everything? 
I forgot to reply.
Okay this map probable getting a bit outdated, but it will suit. Based on this, the same Northern Hungarian will say we are a mix of everything who will claim he is pure 1488% Slavic blood (same with Romanian with pure Daco-Roman blood). He will also tell us to go back to Asia.

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It's traditional now that I post something about it today.
I think we should take a brief look at the fort of Arad, where the martyrs were held captive and then executed.
Arad had a castle already in the 11th century as a center of the county. However it was some distance away, just as subsequent fortifications were erected all about. The current fort was ordered to built by Maria Theresia at cca. 1750. The spot was excellent since from three sides the Maros river surrounds it. The plan was drawn by general Philipp Ferdinand Harsch. It's a hexagon star fort, with ramparts, casemates, bastions, tenailles, lunettes and all that jazz. The tranches were able to be flooded by the river if necessary.
Just as Temes little further south (see pic #4), it was an important place so imperials held it from the start of the revolution, it had to be liberated from them, the defenders were granted free withdrawal and left on 1848 June 28.
After the surrender on 1849 August 17 general Damjanich - one of the martyrs - trusted the fort to the Russians (whom passed it on the the imperials).
After the War of Independence it was used as a prison. I think about 500 officers were held captive there.

In 1919 June, Romanian army took it over, then in 1944 September the Hungarian army entered and kept it for couple of days. Until 1958 Soviet troops were stationed there, even recently parts of it serves as barracks for the Romanian army, not sure what is the situation at the moment.

 >>/45188/
 >>/44879/
Razib Khan wrote a piece on Hungarian genetics on his substack.
https://razib.substack.com/p/hungarians-as-the-ghost-of-the-magyar
(In case you can't read it and it's subscriber only or something, here's an archive: https://archive.is/HTAPk )
tl;dr: Hungary is a meme, genetically Hungarians were more or less wiped out by Mongols and Turks by 16th century

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 >>/45188/
> Okay this map probable getting a bit outdated, but it will suit. Based on this, the same Northern Hungarian will say we are a mix of everything who will claim he is pure 1488% Slavic blood (same with Romanian with pure Daco-Roman blood). He will also tell us to go back to Asia.

Hungary has a really interesting history. But a lil bit messy. Maybe some of your neighboring countries can contribute to the topic. Like Romania for example. NOT bogdan though

Or SlovBerg  >>/45193/



 >>/45192/
> October 6 - Martyrs of Arad

Intradesting

> even recently parts of it serves as barracks for the Romanian army, not sure what is the situation at the moment.

Probably abandoned

 >>/45193/
> tl;dr: Hungary is a meme, genetically Hungarians were more or less wiped out by Mongols and Turks by 16th century

Well you can say that about any old European group. Hardly anyone group stays the same forever.But maybe we can let Hungarybernd voice his onions on this

 >>/45193/
Of course he did. He is a typical Indog cultural appropriator. They're doing this since the 18-19th century. Indo-Euros can't deal with the facts that:
1. there is an enigmatic enclave of non-Indos in the middle of their Indo paradise;
2. other people had any culture and civilization other than Indos;
3. Europe had other languages than Indo ones.
So they constantly try to kick us out into the Siberian taiga, where never any ancestors of the Hungarians lived. Unlike the heartlands of the "Yamnaya culture". Just as Arkaim and Sintashta is the middle of the fugging "Finno-Ugric" homelands. But Indo cultural greed also trying to grab those too (I kinda recall reading something about how Soviet archaeology played 4d chess to explain findings, I don't remember anymore).
Also by the sound of it, he also doesn't know what we many times touched: etchnicity != genetics != language != archaeological culture etc etc. Ethnicity has several elements, some of these and others, and every element changes with time. For example Hungarians, Magyars as is did not even exist until the blood pact in the 9th century, even tho Hungarian language already was spoken since God knows how long, and the Hungarian (and related?) speaking people had their varying communities (with other ethnicities).
History can gave answers only for so much, and scientists always find the holy grail which can cast light into the mysteries of people's origin... which holy grail is always their own chosen field. Back then linguists tried the same what geneticists do today.
Indos also try to encapsulate their own ethnicity in some timeless crystal shell and project it back to the past as unchanged and clean. It's really hilarious how Slavs try to play the steppe people these days (whom they always hated feared throughout their whole history, now they just gobble the horse wiener).
Now fucking Bajingleese come and try to tell us who we are... But we are dealing with glorious Moravians and Dacians for a while now, I doubt he is any more bother, at least we can send him back to Asia.

I have not read the article yet, I'll try, I'm fairly busy for a while now and will be for who knows how long, I've too much on my plate, and getting surfeit.
I wanted something else but forgot. Oh well.







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It's the March 15 national holiday again.
Maybe on the apropos of that Croatian incident with the Tu-141, we could take a look to a topic related to Croatia. Maybe also on the note how individuals' decisions could influence (or not...) the fates of nations, and the malleability of legality/legitimacy, loyalty, and the tool of "divide et impera" in diplomacy.

Croatia belonged to the Hungarian Holy Crown since the end of the 11th century. Saint Ladislaus claimed the throne (he was the brother of the deceased Croatian king's wife, and some of the nobility invited him), then his son Kálmán solidified the rule of the Hungarian kings. There are two views about the status of Croatia, if she was a conquered province or joined via a treaty between the Croat aristocracy and the Hungarian king; so if she was subjected to Hungary or she was a partner country. Nevertheless she surely was a junior partner, and the rule was frequently (if not constantly) was left in the care of the bán, who was one of the five chief dignitaries of the Hungarian Kingdom (in the beginning, it was the first one among them in fact).

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The office of the Croatian bán however is older than the acquisition of the Croatian throne. It was there at the very beginning of their statehood. Croatia was formed by 11 tribes, settling in 11 counties after they migrated here. They pushed out some previous Slavs from power, but Avars also lived in their lands. The three counties they lived in gained a special status, and to lead and govern those areas the office of the bán was created. It was a military rank as well (as in those times frequently happened). Two explanations exist for the origin of the word, one of wich points to the the Slavic Pan as root, the other to the Turkic bayan meaning wealthy, rich (see the Turk khagan, called Bayan; also might be related to Hungarian  which was also a rank, and has the meaning: lot, many, wealthy, etc...).
The status of the bán and how he was elevated to the rank changed during the centuries, sometimes the Croatian Sabor - which was essentially the parliament of the Croatian estates (even today they call their Parliament that) - elected him, sometimes the king handpicked him, sometimes one suggested the other picked from the suggestions, sometimes the Hungarian parliament decided in the question, sometimes the position left empty (during the Habsburg times). Sometimes there were two báns, one for Croatia-Dalmatia and one for Slavonia, a region bordergin Hungaria proper, which wasn't part of Croatia proper either, sometimes governed by the Hungarian prince when the king opted to make him a co-ruler.
The Ottoman Wars and the Ottoman conquest of central Hungary also effected Croatia. Some of the lands lost, from some of the rest, after the Habsburgs acquired the Crown, they organized a border guard region which wasn't under the control of the bán but the emperor's military council - this is the reason that sometimes they did not pick a new bán, although several laws were passed about the issue. Much later, way after the events of 1848-49 tbey gave back the Croatian civilian control over those areas. The last bán was Ivan Subasic who wore this ancient rank until effectively 1945.

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The office was empty between 1845 and 1848, the bishop of Zagreb acted as procurator. After the events of 1848 March 15 for the Court it became important to assign a new bán who is loyal to the Austrian government, before the Hungarian government is set up - which would be independent and responsible towards the Hungarian Parliament-, and the Croatian bán would be subordinate and - god forbid - loyal to them, for they could handpick the person for the job. The choice fall onto colonel Josip Jellacic, an imperial officer, who was the commander of the first border guard grenzer regiment at the time, and spent over two decade in his majesty's service. His name was put forward by the Austrian minister-president, the Czech born Kolowrat. Since the border region was under military control, as the regiment commander he was the administrator of civilian affairs too, eg. responsible for building roads. He did a good job gaining the confidence of the population, and became respected among them.
On March 23 he was appointed as the new bán by king Ferdinand V. - on the same day the new Hungarian government started to form - so he gained control over the military affairs of Croatia, and then on April 7-8, they bumped his rank up to lieutenant fieldmarshall, to became the leader of all the military of the emperor and king there. If I understand correctly Croatia had it's own military, then the bán had own regiments - one if which Jelacic was the colonel of -, there were the border guard units, and other units which were either imperial Austrian, or belonged to the Hungarian king. But however it was precisely, the fact of the matter is that he became the leader of all essentially, and he had utmost loyalty to the emperor and his bureaucracy. They also successfully prevented the spread of revolutionary movement into the border regions.

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Jelacic traveled to Vienna, where he took his oath. The Hungarian government expected him to appear, so they can make his appointment official from our side too, trying to enforce some kind of control over him. He had no intention to do that, but introduced martial law in Croatia. He also ignored the Laws of April (which can be considered as kind of a constitution for the forming order on Hungary), although he did abolished serfdom which was part of said Laws, but he did it following his own judgement (gaining further support from the local population). The Hungarian government managed to get an order from the king which instructed Jelacic to obey to said government. And for the case he doesn't obey they also acquired a permit to relegate a commissary to replace him. He did not, and told if the government tries to replace him, he will put up armed resistance. Since the appointed commissary had inadequate military force, he realized he can do nothing to further the cause.
The Croatian Sabor was called together by Jelacic. They drafted a pack of suggestions which were sent to the king. First they wanted their own separate government, independent from the Hungarian, but most importantly they wanted to trust the imperial government with the monetary and military affairs. This second point was reeked from the influence of the Court. If the Croation Sabor would wanted any real form of independence, they would have opted with similar solution to what the Hungarian revolutionaries wanted, the control of own army and finances. The king dismissed the suggestions, but some elements of the Court welcomed Jelacic and shown support. Both sides expressed their concerns about the Croatian soldiers fighting agains the rebelling Italians and the situation in Italy in general. On June 10 the king sacked Jelacic as bán, this manifest - which Jelacic got to know from the newspapers - was never actually enforced. Hungarian government made an offer to the Croats, similar to what those sent to the king, except they wanted the military and finance to be common with Hungary instead. During the negotiations however they went as far as offering them an independent Croatia, and keep her only as an ally. The summer went on with negotiations, but everything was rejected.

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Jelacic behaviour also started to change. He made the Sabor permanent on July 9, but he adjourned it's meetings and acted as a dictator charged with full authority (his offices combined with the martial law made this possible for him). His preparations for a war against Hungary went gradually, as the situation in Italy stabilized. The Hungarian government made an agreement with him, that both parties will withdraw their troops from the Drava. Until August he moved couple of battalions here and there. In early August he occupied the two easternmost counties between the Sava and Drava. By the end of the month he started to demand from Hungary that she should give up her independent affairs of military and finance. On September 4 the king reinstituted him into the position of bán. A week later, after the first Hungarian government resigned on September 11, he started out with 50000 soldiers against Hungary, under the black-yellow Imperial flag instead of the Croatian.

Who controlled the bán, controlled Croatia. A bán friendly towards us could have changed the events dramatically, but that did not favor the influential conservatives of the Habsburg imperium (even tho there was a way to preserve that imperium together with the Hungarians, as I previously written in these commemorations). And Jelacic was an effective agent of the Court. And via Jelacic the Croatians were turned against the changes in the Hungarian Kingdom, and they were used as a cudgel - along with the other Slavic nations and the Vlahs - against the revolutionary thought. And in the end, after the danger for the Habsburg absolutism passed, they got the same treatment as us, as I also pointed out on previous occasions

 >>/46937/
 >>/46938/
> On June 10 the king sacked Jelacic as bán, this manifest - which Jelacic got to know from the newspapers - was never actually enforced.
> On September 4 the king reinstituted him into the position of bán.
I don't get it. He went rogue by refusing to hand over power, yet acted as if it were nothing and kept acting in the Habsburgs' interests, and then the Habsburgs also acted as if it were nothing? What was the Hasburg plan for replacing him?

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 >>/46961/
I should have embolden it, that the Court sent mixed messages to all the participants on purpose. Their state was burning on so many places they did not have the idea where to start fight the flames. So they promised everything everywhere, sit down with offers of compromises, while they set the plan of making order into motion.

Ferdinand (emperor I, king V.) was a weightless rules, he was naive and clueless to the point where some people thought him as a mild retard (I don't believe he was). Instead of him the Court governed, he just signed what others (like the parliaments) managed to push through the Court. The Court itself were full of cliques with their own interests and schemes, probably an individual could belong several cliques based on his own interests and schemes, and the unfolding events.
As the Hungarian king he had a deputy, the nádor (comes palatinus), the highest dignitary of the country. Often the nádor signed papers instead of him (which later needed to be signed by the king to make it really legal), or petitioned the ruler, lobbied at him (and the Court). After the new independent and responsible Hungarian government set up, they created a ministry that's only job was tending the affairs with the king. This minister had similar job to the nádor, to lobby at the king (and Court), to negotiate, and act as a courier between the govt. and the king. (He might have other jobs too, I've never read about them, it's just what I deduced from the events.)

So the Court set the folks of their empire to keep in check each other, while they saw how events pan out and how they have to adapt to the situation. For example in Italy 30 thousand Croat fought in the armies there to suppress the rebellion, while they propped up the the Serbs and Vlahs in Hungary and Transylvania to keep Hungarians busy. Jelacic himself was a manipulation to secure Croatia. Or the nádor. Jelacic invaded the country with the imperial flag which signaled to the imperial soldier and officers where his support comes from and to whom they should be loyal to. The Hungarian government sent an army against him, and they picked the nádor because he was an archduke from the House Habsburg-Lorraine and a legitimate official whom had the chance the win over those imperial soldiers and officers. But the nádor had a written order from the Court, that he has to engage negotiations with Jelacic, which mustn't fruit results, and then he had to resign and leave for Vienna referring to this failure.

 >>/46963/
I think the Court spun plans for all the possibilities and invested enough into all the participating parties to move over to the side that seemed the winning one. The Habsburgs' long term plan was always survival and were prepared to ride all the changes that might occur, but I think the strongest clique was the conservative absolutist one, whose main goal wasn't just restoring the previous order, but centralizing more. The young Franz Josef was the one whom they created the new absolutist monarch from. But they needed time so they had to give concessions and didn't mind if poor fool Ferdinand blundered about some. For example they were willing to give in to the revolution in Vienna, resign Metternich and give them a new "civilian" office, the minister-president, and Kolowrat in the role (who was the arch-enemy of Metternich whom the Viennese hated, but was Czech nationalist well, what can classify as nationalist in his circles and not a friend of the Hungarians or their cause, it wasn't a coincidence he suggested Jelacic).

 >>/46965/
The whole thing with Jelacic was a battle for the control over Croatia. The bán was subordinated to the Hungarian king (not the Austrian emperor), but due to the revolution the real power went to the Hungarian parliament and government, it was a move toward a constitutional monarchy. Just before the government could have formed, the Court made sure to appoint a bán who had no revolutionary ideas, who was a loyal imperial officer in the imperial military (that Jelacic had civilian administrative practice too, and was known  and like locally it really was a boon, and made him an ideal candidate for the purpose, he was also a pragmatist - it seems to me - so he could use any tools without prejudice). I think they basically just waltzed over to Ferdinand and said:
> your majesty one of the high offices in your Hungarian kingdom is empty for a while now, it is really a shame, and it would serve the kingdom well to appoint someone, here is this baron from a good house, he is a loyal subject of yours, serving you for decades, he will be a swell choice
> ok here's my signature
While de jure he should have get his orders from the Hungarian government, it was busy setting up the institutions, the finance, and the military to take the control in its hands, there was the matter of incorporating Erdély/Transylvania and the abolishment of serfdom. At that point even the Serbian riffraff in the Southern Ends meant trouble, they had no power to enforce anything outside Hungary proper. So de facto Jelacic was independent, and while the Hungarian government managed to influence the king to remove him in name, they could only hope he would follow the ways they deemed legal. But since he never took the oath of the bán for the Hungarian govt, and he was a military commander in the region as the emperor's officer, he could stay in power if he wanted, legally. So it was kinda a loophole of overlapping offices. This situation was handed over to him by the Court, and the reactionaries there encouraged him, to hold out, and later, to act.

 >>/46967/
> the Hungarian government managed to influence the king to remove him in name, they could only hope he would follow the ways they deemed legal
Makes sense now. How viable were Croat-Hungarian negotiations, with Jelacic as an obstacle?

 >>/46977/
Weren't much.
There were pro-Hungarian Croat notabilities but they were intimidated, sacked, and even jailed. I think the martial law was used to marginalize them. The revolutionary ideas were also sympathetic ofc, this was the reason for Jelacic to abolish serfdom, giving something for the people, so they won't seek at the Hungarian govt what they don't have. They also had their nationalistic awakening and that was served too. So people were pacified, dissenters quietened, the Court had full success there. And the first real attack against the Hungarian revolution came from there on behalf of the empire (there were fights in the Southern Ends with the Serbs and in Erdély/Transylvania with the vlahs, but they were dressed as people's movements).


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 >>/46998/
I know three games about Hungarian history, all was made by the support of the Ministry of Education, I think the dev team was called Huszár Games, then maybe Matrix Games. Later they made a fourth game with the same engine, featuring the Napoleonic wars. I think I wrote about them in one of the vidya threads.
The three games are (in order of historical events):
- Hunyadi hadai
- Pro Libertate
- 1848
I'm hoping to upload the third one right now here. An installer exe can be found in the zip. I think English is a selectable language, maybe I'll install it and check. Any old hardware can run it, virtual machines too, I run it on Wine in the past and worked swell.

 >>/47008/
Installed, but it's so glitchy it's unplayable. Maybe different Wine version (an older one) or some other settings could solve it, tried on 32bit by default. Maybe a WinXP wirtual machine (a Win7 also could prove to be suitable, but XP is sure) would offer the most optimal solution.
Only in Hungarian, no setting to switch to English. Bunch of stuff are just in .txt files so making an English version would be a question of time. Which I don't have. And patience neither.





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 >>/47008/
> I know three games about Hungarian history, all was made by the support of the Ministry of Education, 

oghey

> I'm hoping to upload the third one right now here.

I found some links you can dll them from and read about them

https://archive.org/details/1848_game


https://hungame.blog/2017/10/25/hunyadi-hadai/
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/32424/1848-australia
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/989/1848

And here's a blog that talks about games in Hungarian 

https://hungame.blog/

 >>/47112/
That boardgamegeek thing is something else.
But the first one, on archive.org the screenshots show English language game! I'll dl and check.
That hungame.blog lists games which were devved by Hungarians. Some I surely know that they entirely Hungarian, but I see titles I wouldn't think they are.



 >>/47138/
I think in full campaign Vienna is held by Austrian revolutionaries, not by imperials.
And one settlement is nothing in itself. Many key places to capture and hold. And while doomstack would march on Wien, imperials could capture Hungarian towns with small cavalry units quick.

From what I remember there are towns where units are generated at every 3-5 weeks depending on the type of unit, those are the important places I think.
I'm not sure about the victory conditions, when all such towns are captured, or when every unit is destroyed, but I think the towns are the goals, that would make more sense. A handful of forts are also dotting the map, which are extremely hard to capture, proper artillery is needed, which isn't easy to produce (especially with all the other fighting is going on, all demanding more and more units).
The positions of both sides have strong points and weaknesses. The Hugarians are located centrally, making it relatively easy to move (fresh) units to the different fronts around, but they have to move those units around to prevent the enemy becoming too strong on one front and their pushing into the country from that direction. If one front is lost, the country will be lost.
For the imperials on the other hand regrouping units from one front to another isn't easy, tho fronts can't support each other but one way, tying up Hungarian forces. If one front is lost, then Hungarians can regroup from there, overloading the next and the next (in theory).

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Last week a brand new study was published on the genetic origin of the Hungarians. More closely they took a look at Hun, Avar, and Hungarian remains in the Carpathian basin.
I'm gonna just pick three points of the highlights:
- Genetic continuity is detected between Xiongnus and European Huns
- European Avars most likely originated from Mongolia and were related to Huns
- Conquering Hungarians had Ugric ancestry and later admixed with Sarmatians and Huns

First is important question to clear because their continuity wasn't obvious. The European Huns arrived here with different physical culture, with a strong Persian influence, they left behind their typical goods of the steppe people of the Scytho-Hunnic era. There is also some hundred years of hiatus between mentions of the Xiungnu in the east, and the appearance of the Huns in the western sources. It was just assumed that they are identical with the European Huns. As a Hungarian scholar put it: if a cat disappears under one side of the table, and appears on the other side, we can safely assume it is the same cat. The problem that this particular cat did not look entirely the same. Now we know, that genetically they were (perhaps in their language too, but culturally they had some differences).
So the Avars really were the Juan-Juans (or the Rouran Empire how the article writes it), which was just another state of the Huns apparently.
What isn't in the highlight about the Hungarians but found in the article: from the modern populations the closest genetically to those Hungarians who lived in the era of the Conquest of the Carpathian basin are the Bashkirs and Volga Tatars.
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)00732-1

 >>/47730/
Well that's what we said for years.

> he European Huns arrived here with different physical culture, with a strong Persian influence

I don't think that's true if at all the word you seek is Iranic which would be actually East Iranianics in this contex.

It's normal for Hungarians to be related with Volga-Tatars and Chuvahs because Xiongus and European Huns ruling caste was speaking language close to Chuvash, the genetic closeness probably something to do with modern Bashkir and Chuvash populations being mixed. In that case Hungarians are unique because they are distan branch of Oghurs who are so distant from other Turkics they are their own thing, atleast in modern times. They speak the last remnant of -r Turkic instead of Oghuz-Shaz Turkic.

 >>/47731/
> word you seek is Iranic
No. Persian. More specifically Sassanid.
From the beginning of the Scythian era a very typical ornamental style was present all over the steppe belt, what we call the "scythian animal style", we talk about that previously. No matter the ethnicity of those people, all the folk had the very same. This is missing from the findings of the European Huns. What they have instead in their art is Persian. This is why archaeologists resorted to identify "leading finds", like the Hunnic cauldrons, to tell what remains belong to the Huns.

> Well that's what we said for years.
In Hungarian historiography both Turkic (Hunnic) and Iranian (Scythian) relations were dropped entirely to favor the Finno-Ugric origins. Those who tried to pick up those threads, and declared we have lot to do with both groups were bullied out of the academia and the science of history. They were laughed at in scientific journals, made fun of, told they were stupid, or romantic. At best they got obscure positions in tiny museums in the countryside and were denied of professorships, they couldn't teach, at worst they had to leave their career behind. It was the worst during the decades of scientific Marxism, but this was going on from the late 19th century (from the so called Ugric-Turkic War I mentioned before, which was a clash of scientific views, and "won" by the linguists who pushed the Ugric ancestry).
Now a group of scientists, biologists essentially, with the results of genetic studies they started to address taboos. Like the Hunnic relations.

 >>/47732/
 >>/47732/
> From the beginning of the Scythian era a very typical ornamental style was present all over the steppe belt, what we call the "scythian animal style", we talk about that previously. No matter the ethnicity of those people, all the folk had the very same. This is missing from the findings of the European Huns. What they have instead in their art is Persian. This is why archaeologists resorted to identify "leading finds", like the Hunnic cauldrons, to tell what remains belong to the Huns.
Interesting I didn't know that where does it say that?

> In Hungarian historiography both Turkic (Hunnic) and Iranian (Scythian) relations were dropped entirely to favor the Finno-Ugric origins. Those who tried to pick up those threads, and declared we have lot to do with both groups were bullied out of the academia and the science of history. They were laughed at in scientific journals, made fun of, told they were stupid, or romantic. At best they got obscure positions in tiny museums in the countryside and were denied of professorships, they couldn't teach, at worst they had to leave their career behind. It was the worst during the decades of scientific Marxism, but this was going on from the late 19th century (from the so called Ugric-Turkic War I mentioned before, which was a clash of scientific views, and "won" by the linguists who pushed the Ugric ancestry).
Now a group of scientists, biologists essentially, with the results of genetic studies they started to address taboos. Like the Hunnic relations.

I remember about what you said we talked about these a year ago but  I think people take genetics way too serious. Even if you would be %99 identical to us we wouldn't be related due to very different culture. You don't share some kind of common history  with other Turkics. Believing linguistic group=genes=ethnicity is so 19th century thing. 

It's a shame people politicized the science in the past.

 >>/47737/
> where does it say that?
It's not in the article. Here are some examples for the animal style of the steppe:
 >>/25544/  >>/25545/  >>/25546/  >>/25547/  >>/25548/
Now these are just deer and similar, and just a slice of the whole material, but are very typical looking. This is missing from the findings of the European Huns. Archaeologists should note this, or at least it should be apparent from their works. I'll try to find a source and present some artifacts they unearthed, it was a long time ago last time I dabbled in this.
> but I think people take genetics way too serious.
That is true. This genetics thing is now what was linguistics at the end of the 19th century.
> Believing linguistic group=genes=ethnicity is so 19th century thing.
I concur, we concluded this here a couple of times.

> It's a shame people politicized the science in the past.
Still is now sadly.
Those guys during the communism are solidified themselves in the structure of education and academic life so strong then even today most places are theirs and their students who grew to be professors. Now the younger generations have their own ideas, and they are breaking taboos, questioning dogmas, and with the political pressure gone, they get their voice heard occasionally, and deviating from the mainline in their teachings, so the next generation of scholars will be more open minded for other ideas. However the governing party of ours, the Fidesz and Orbán set up and finances from public money an institution which specifically researches and concentrates on alternative paths. I think the research for this new paper was also supported by it. I think it is good we have a widened horizon when we look into the past of the Hungarian people and our prehistory, but it is pushed by political forces yet again.
It is worth to note, that the "traditional" views (the official Marxist Uralic line of linguistics) were also supported by people with political agenda. I often saw articles bashing ideas (and the people who put those ideas forward) about the Hun and Scythian relations from people/journalists who got their education in the Central European University financed by Soros.
I don't know if we'll ever get rid of this. Probably never, since this thing, how Hungarians see our history also influences how they vote.

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So here are some examples which are considered Hunnic findings.
1. Sword of Altlussheim, from Germany (Baden-Würtemberg). The Huns widely used what is called "spatha" in latin, which basically means longsword (in contrast with the gladius). They did not have sabers, which came with Hungarians, so this in itself is ok, because Scythians used similarly spathas. But the ornaments are Persian imitations on this basically. The lapis lazuli
2. Stamped faces on golden sheets, from a Hun kurgan in Ukraine. There are some parallels of this in other steppe findings, but not that typical.
3 and 4. Diadems, first from Csorna (Hungary), the other is from Kerch (Crimea).

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Compare those diadems with this Hun crown from NE China. I think we also talked about this particular piece in some other thread. The head of the falcon/buzzard/eagle is not fixed so when the wearer walked/rode it bobbed. Anyway it is very dissimilar even tho the diadem found at Kerch does have a bird on it.
So this is why Hunnic cauldrons became important. These can be found from the Korea to the Atlantic, all the way in Eurasia, and a typical item of the Huns. Some has a base/foot.


 >>/47775/
Parties themselves don't have a lot of money. And what they get from the state and donations they can't just spend it however they like. The Fidesz has a 2/3 in the parliament and through the ministries of the govt. they control the whole budget of the country.
Why they is it good for the Fidesz to meddle in the research? Well they build political capital from it. The Scythian-Hun origin was and still is favoured by people with nationalistic feelings and thinking. These people might support Jobbik, or Mi Hazánk, but Fidesz catering to them can show it is worth to vote for Fidesz instead of the other two.


 >>/47787/
Probably the best to describe is as battle for identity.
The Scythian and Hun heritage reaches back to ancestors who broke empires and created empires themselves. Rulers of ours traced back their heritage to Attila himself and with the sure knowledge of their worthiness they entered in every undertaking of theirs.
When the idea of Finno-Ugric kinship rose in the second half of the 19th century, we just had almost broken an empire (the Habsburgs') and they could only save it with the help another empire (Russia). But the Finno-Ugrics were noones. In fact this group did not even exist until that point, and even in the written sources those tiny folks appear fairly late (liek in 16th century). So for many it felt as a slap in a face when this was pushed into the scientific thought, in a time when they (chiefly Germanics) started to tell us that we are small, weak, we are noones. And while that idea widened the prehistorical research - and indeed many who considered themselves nationalist followed that path -, soon the Finno-Ugric linguists demanded the sole control over Hungarian prehistory, and narrowed the research back, but towards another direction. Geopolitical interests demanded from us to accept our status as noones, be happy with our destroyed and divided country, not to turn on our neighbours, not to raise some ruckus. Then Soviet Union wanted us to accept our vassal status, not to rebel, to accept we are weak and noones. The Finno-Ugric ancestry very well fit into this and was supported politically by internationalists (and it seems still supported by them to date).
Meanwhile nationalists tried to hang into the tradition, and told that we aren't noones, but someones. We were and we can be. But nationalists in a Marxist-internationalist country are just a powerless obscure group. After the regime change they started to get louder and turned out lots of people have feelings towards their country and nation. There is a demand for nationalism. And they are curious about our history. Tales and myths also were told (and the Scytho-Hunnic kinship also was pushed into the world of tales) and these are more easily digestible than linguistic gibberish, so it was easy an easy reach towards the traditional explanations. And it is popular. People visit kurultaj and stuff in masses.
History of a nation gives an identity to her. Two different stories give two different identities. It is important what we tell ourselves who we are, and the sum of our past actions is what we are, this is true for individuals and folks.

Maybe a bit idealistic and oversimplified, but more or less that's it. I'm not sure if this answers your question.

One more note I wanna give however.
There is a series of historical questions that builds constant confrontations and hatered. One of which is the quarrel over our prehistory. Other example would be the person of Görgey:  >>/35167/

 >>/47801/
Additional thoughts.
The researchers in the Finno-Ugric "school" adopted the stance of scientific objectivity, claimed the sole representation of science for themselves, and declared that everyone who toys with the idea of Scythian and Hun kinship are doing it out of inferiority complex, or chauvinistic irredentism, and are at best romantic dreamers (as I noted before), but who are causing harm to Hungarian historiography (they published articles with titles: "Reality and mythical deformity" and such). The worst type attacks were made during the communism and the following decade ('90s) ofc.
Then they started to shit on previous scholars of the 19th century (and ofc on the "fascist" ones from the interwar era, no matter of their stance) who were considered prominent on their respective fields.
Medieval Hungarian primary sources also got unfair treatment - they all attest the Scythian-Hunnic ancestry - and were considered weak and bad sources, almost swept off from the table, and literally any other source was favoured as long as it was written by foreigners on foreign lands (joke is for a very long time all foreign sources also calls us Scythian, Hun, and Avar). We should take a look at the wildly different treatment of the saga's by northern historians. Those are treasured sources, even tho they are largely poetic inventions.

 >>/47730/
>  from the modern populations the closest genetically to those Hungarians who lived in the era of the Conquest of the Carpathian basin are the Bashkirs and Volga Tatars.
> Meanwhile nationalists tried to hang into the tradition, and told that we aren't noones, but someones.

But that means that modern Hungarians are less related to these Conqueror Hungarians than some foreigners. And that tradition is about heritage of ruling conqueror class, not about general population.

 >>/47808/
Indeed.
But ethnicity has several components. "Blood"/genes, language, culture (spiritual: beliefs, tales, legends, songs, etc; physical: items, objects, building, clothing, decoration etc.), lifestyle, all moving parts, they change. That's why identity is important, because those are the descendants who preserve that identity.

Besides how different were those who lived here before the Huns arrived first? According to the study in those times the locals preserved genes reaching back to the bronze age. But since the bronze age steppe people lived in the Carpathian basin more or less continuously (Scythians, Sarmatians and their variants, like the Iazig people whom were around in the times of Huns and had their own fights with the Romans, and Germanics too, and whom in the end settled on the Hungarian Great Plains in the times of the Hungarian Christian kingdom, and they are called Jász, and also assimilated into the Hungarians).

The case however isn't this simple and the study doesn't solve mysteries. There is another study from some years before, and I do cite it sometimes, here I did couple of times. That one found that the conquest times Hungarians had genetic ties to Huns (~45%), Scandis (~45%), Caucasians (~6%, not American Caucasian, but those who actually live in the region of the Caucasus mountains), and Slavs (~2%). The Scandinavians are more likely the Goths living north of the Black Sea, South Russian Steppes, and not the Varyags, because judging by the remains of their physical culture they were fully assimilated, so no fresh incorporation. So these two studies also have to be reconciled.

 >>/47810/
> "Blood"/genes, language, culture [...] lifestyle
I forgot common historical background. The common struggle, which also shapes identity.

And I have to add, that from all the current languages of the Earth probably those in the Finno-Ugric family are the closest to Hungarian, both in grammar and core vocabulary. And this recent genetic study confirmed genetic relations too. What I said during the years I have had these discussions on imageboards is that it was a mistake to narrow down the research only to that direction. Quite a few Hungarians on the other hand stood by the opinion that it is completely wrong, probably due to the fact that many people can't think, but only in extremes, on one bit (0 or 1, all or nothing).
And I write about "current" languages, because there is no recorded languages Hungarian can be matched to prior to 16th century, because only the Hungarian appears in written form before that (back to the 11th century, 1055AD, in Latin letter, what remained from before that are all in Hungarian runes and their decipher isn't sure).
I also have to note that beside the Turkic people we don't know what languages were spoken by the Avars, Huns, Sarmatians, Scythians, and many other people, like Massagetas and so on. All just speculation based on sparse amount of words recorded by foreigners (they also have their own runes, it's just no decipher provided ever), and further speculations.

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Customary for me to write something on these national holidays, so here it is.

Recently I saw in the news that in Belgium or England (I think) they introduced recently 4 days workweek for some fields or workers. A company here also did the same. It would be nice if we could reach the 5 days workweek tho, since I know many who work 6 still. But August 20 is a holiday since king Francis I so they don't have to work on this nice Saturday.
But I don't wish to discuss the merits of 4 days workweek (I think it would be better if they reduce the number of hours worked per day, noone works with his best effort over 3 hours anyway, the rest is half steam at best), but write something related to the celebrations, and Saint Stephen, our first Catholic king.

Maybe let's talk about his final resting place. Picrel, his supposed sarcophagus.

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The Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Székesfehérvár held a great importance in the life of the Medieval Hungary. It was the place where Hungarian kings had to be crowned to acknowledge them "officially" as kings. It isn't a coincidence, the church was founded by Saint Stephen and this is the place where traditionally believed that he was buried (I read he might had been crowned here, but since the basilica was built after he was crowned, it would surprise me; the other place they put his coronation is Esztergom). From 53 (actually 52, Joseph II was never a king) kings, 37 were crowned here, and all from the House of Árpád (23). Furthermore it is believed 15 were buried here. Which isn't that much considering. That's not all, from the House of Árpád, only 5 of them followed Stephen there, in fact the next 7 kings after him did not, they all have different burial places. They had to have serious reasons for this - which I won't unearth now.
The basilica is in ruins now - well basically only the foundations what we have, the very base of the walls. Storms of history destroyed it, but even in the 18th century an English traveler (certain Clements Simon?) noted the beauty of the remains, which means then it still had to had some structure. While the Turks turned it to mosque earlier, then the Habsburgs' Germans robbed the place (and the graves themselves) after that, the real destruction was done by us, and not simply by the people, but the direct controllers of the diocese, the various Hungarian archbishops, who used it up as a mine for building materials, especially when the palace of the archbishoprics was built. The "stone theft" went on up till the late 19th century, when they already did archaeological digging there. To be honest lots of historical place fell victim of this "recycling" activity.

Video, how it looked like and changed during the centuries when it still stood:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=fdoOesfubTU
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=fdoOesfubTU

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Accidentally this whole post in another thread...

Maybe worthy to note, that there was another big church nearby, consecrated to Saint Peter and Paul, which doesn't exist anymore. The town had eleven churches in the middle ages.

Historical sources have a couple of words to say about the burial of Saint Stephen. His two legends, and the legend written by bishop Hartvik says he was laid to rest in the basilica consecrated to Virgin Mary, he founded in the town of Alba (fehérvár = white castle). Hartvik also notes two things: 1. his body was put into a carved marble sarcophagus at the center of the church; 2. his grave was below the level of the floor, covered by large marble slab, and they had to go down to his "coffin", apparently here he uses the words sarcophagus and "tumba", sometimes interchangeably, and from the text they figure the coffin itself might have been put together from stone slabs. Archaeological excavation in the 1970's proved that there was a facility partially below ground level in the middle of the basilica, essentially a crypt, with stairs leading down there, and which was changed during the centuries.
The sarcophagus' - which I posted earlier and widely knows as Saint Stephen's - origin is actually quite foggy. There is data, that in the 19th century it was used as trough for animals, other data says it was found in undisturbed ground. It do has a hole on one end however supporting the its use as a trough. The place of origin is also debated. Contemporary scholars either don't know, or state various places, among them Óbuda (now part of Budapest). The material is limestone (not marble), from local quarry (local as Hungarian, near from Budapest). The first time the idea raised that it was Saint Stephen's coffin was in 1930. Since then all the supporting points was debated, and indeed refuted. Btw the top cover is missing.
One info they cite so many times it's a cliche now, that it's a Roman a modified sarcophagus. I'm not sure where this comes from and I only see this as a statement, and read no supporting evidence or reasoning. Only three sides has decoration (two long and one short), which means it stood by a wall. The style has contemporary parallels in Hungary, and shows analogy with North Adriatic findings, both on the Italian and the Dalmatian sides. Some think it was a work of a Venetian craftsmen hired and invited to the court.
Also some think it was the coffin made for the son of Saint Stephen: Saint Emeric.

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A day late, but I don't have much to write anyway. Although it's a giant topic.
I found something mildly interesting, Hungarians emigrants in Argentine during the events.
They had a weekly newspaper the South American Hungarians, published in Hungarian, from 1929 to 1962, which followed the happenings in the home country, sometimes publishing articles listing the events from hour to hour, and ofc local news. Ideologically they reflected interwar Hungary, and were supportive towards the system of Perón, and they supported the movement of '56. They spread fliers all over Buenos Aires in the numbers of tens of thousands, they organized rallies, they lobbied so Argentine would put her voice next to the revolutionaries. They sent medical help (medicine, blood, bandages, etc.), but also gathered ~500 volunteer who planned to join to the freedom fighters. They weren't just Hungarians, but Poles, Croats, Northern Hungarians joined too, and even people from Caucasian countries. Due to various circumstances they never left for Europe.
After the defeat emigrant Hungarian women dressed in black did a procession on the streets of Buenos Aires.

While I search for a pic of the newspaper, I also found a sample from Brazilian-Hungarian press.

 >>/49087/
Ever heard of the Hungarian battalion in the 1924 revolution in São Paulo? The revolutionaries formed three foreign battalions, German, Italian and Hungarian, from the huge number of immigrant workers in the city. They weren't just from those three nationalities, that's just how the revolutionaries organized them. Foreigners were a valuable contribution as they had real World War I combat experience. Some also worked on maintenance in the rear.

 >>/49092/
I did not know about this.
In the past ~150 years, over 3 million people left the country for the New World (actually many left to Italy, or Turkey for example, they also could end up at different places). Up to 1921 2 million, but I think from all the ethnicities who lived in our Kingdom.
They all play their part in the history of the recipient countries, that seems to be evident, but I don't know how much they did as a separate group or community, and not just as "Americans", "Argentines", or "Brazilians".
If you know more, I would hear it. I'm also curious if these old newspapers are available online, in digitized formats.

 >>/49105/
> They all play their part in the history of the recipient countries, that seems to be evident, but I don't know how much they did as a separate group or community, and not just as "Americans", "Argentines", or "Brazilians".
Legalists made a big deal of revolutionaries recruiting foreign "mercenaries". To make matters worse, European immigrant factory workers were associated with radical ideologies such as anarchism. Though their sons were already far more paulista than European.

 >>/49125/
That make sense. From Europe not just those emigrated who wanted to find possibilities to create something for themselves, but many left for political reasons. And these people often followed radical ideologies.
And then no matter how they brought up their children, their circumstances were way different than it was in the old country.

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I chose to write about the Hungarian army today, without going into it's actual history. I just want to give an idea what was it like.
Well, it was colorful.

First there were units inherited from the Habsburg's empire, regular units, with imperial training and equipment. Then there was the national guard, the fresh Parliament enacted a law to set up these units, the regulation gave an exact picture what to aim for, and as they started to set up the battalions. They were closer to regular units, since countering the Serbian revolt demanded such level of organization. This was the core of the Home Defense Forces. The term for an individual soldier is honvéd which translates to "homeland defender" in literal sense, or loosely "patriot" - and we use the term since then -, but it originates from the German "Landwehr", the mirror translation of it, which is sometimes translated as "home guard" to English. They entered for three years into service.
The regulars and the almost regular national guards (HDF) were rounded out with various volunteer units, some in the ranks of the national guard, some as very "civilian" militias, territorial units. At the end of 1848 a larger organization was set up, unifying the command over the whole thing, it was called, Hungarian Home Defence Army.

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The arms of the Defense Force were the infantry, cavalry, artillery, and a tiny engineer corps.
Infantry can be divided as I wrote above. The regulars of the Habsburg empire, the Hungarians were serving outside of the country, these units had to return home. Then there was the newly set up Home Defense Forces, and the national guard it grew out of. I think border guards also count here. Beyond were the volunteer militias, the "Freikorps". As auxiliaries forigners also fought alongside of our boys, first and foremost the various legions: the Viennese students, the Polish legion, and a German one, with skull and bones on their cap (srsly). Italians arrived too. (Curiously Vlahs did negoitiations with the Hungarian government for an own legion, even offered that the whole Avraham Iancu revolt side with us, and turn Wallachia and Moldova against the Russian. Srsly.)
Cavalry always remained hussar centric. It was the classic Hungarian role, the Emperor and King had no curiassiers from this part of his lands. There was a weak little step to set up such branch, but resulted in only one regiment. Other light cavalry units could be found too, eg. uhlans and chevau-légers.
As for the artillery corps, this stood on the most wobbly legs. They took the Austrian model as a template as the organized this branch of the military, which had a quite complicated structure since it also included logistical organs. This branch also included the artillery of garrisons and forts. Problem were that the troops of the arty units stationed on the Hungary were almost exclusively Austrian and Czech, on the other hand quite a few were willing to help setting up armament factories, if not involved in the struggle directly - sometimes as PoWs. Which was a great help since the inherited cannon park lacked the pipes that could be fielded in battles.
Despite the arty corps origin there were differences compared to the imperial. First a battery consisted only 8 cannons, this was lighter than the Austrian 10 (although I think they had light and heavy batteries too). So less firepower on paper. However the horse train Hungarians moved the pipes around were more maneuverable, which offered tactical advantage.
The engineers were sappers and pontooner battalions.

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The weaponry.

Guns. The bread and butter of the armies.
For a long time there was no real change in muzzle loader guns. There were experiments, Prussians tinkered with various configurations (changing the shape of stock, stuff like that), but nothing revolutionary came from it. Then in the first half of the 19th century a new firing mechanism was introduced, the percussion cap, and the Austrian army also started to phase out the old flintlock system (which was introduced in the 1500s!), and 1842M Augustine infantry musket entered into service. This war of independence was the field test of the new guns.
Basically instead of the spark of the flint, a chemical reaction induced the ignition of the gunpowder which was stuffed down the barrel. See the animations.
The freshly organized Hungarian army's greatest challenge was the procurement of guns. They had what the regular units had with themselves, the new percussion cap ones, they had warehouses with the old flintlock system, but there was little to no manufacturing capacity, which needed to be set up. They also tried to alleviate the hunger with foreign purchases and requisition of civilian hunting arms, mostly flintlock muzzleloaders - often recruits simply brought their rifles from home with themselves. In the active phase of the war, after won battles and sieges, they also make good use of the captured equipment. They needed all guns, pistols, and carbines what they could get, from any source available.
The 1842M had a rifled version, sometimes called 1844M, used in way smaller numbers, mostly in border guard units, jäger, sharpshooters. While I "researched" I found a note that in general all over Europe, rifled guns were frowned upon, and their users were considered murderers. Early rifles were hard to use as the bullet was hard to press down the barrel, due to tight fit, but this 1844M was almost as easy to load as the smoothbore muskets.
Flintlock guns came at least in four variation, 1798M, 1807M, 1818M, 1838M. Imported weapons came from England and Belgium, percussion primer, some rifled.
Apparently a gunsmith in Kassa invented a breach loading system and offered the government his work. It could have been a paradigm shifting event, unfortunately the country was in no position to invest in a new and untried piece of equipment, especially not in a number that could make the difference.

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After the pike and shot era, the two type of weapons were married with the invention of bayonet. Ours were mostly of the Laukart system, with 4 edges, called 1838M, and other older models. The length were 460 or 600 mm.
This was complemented with infantry sabers, mostly used by officers, often made individually in large variety of looks. Two other characteristic swords were in use among the infantry, the jurátus sabre, the insignia of law students who joined the revolution by the thousands, and the straight sword of Viennese legionnaires.
The last thing worth nothing here is the sapper saber, with it's wide blade and saw spine.
The weapon shortage was so pressing, that territorial militias, often helped themselves with straightening the scythe, and used it as a substitution of pikes and bayonets.

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The cavalry used the carbines and pistols. Hussars had their sabers, uhlans lances (2630 mm long). Militias used what they had, civilian pistols, centuries old sabers, and since these soldiers were frequently cattle herders in their civilian life whips.

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The basic armament of the artillery were the 6 pounder cannons, made of bronze. Weight about 700 kgs, four horses pulled one piece, 9 man crew served each on paper, but three can make it work. Two shots could be fired per minute, with an effective range of ~1500 m.
The field artillery also used 3, 12, and 18 pdr cannons, siege guns were 18 and 24 pdrs. The stationary guns they used for defending forts were made of iron, and came in 12, 18, and 24 pdr versions.
Howitzers and mortars fired in a high angle. The first ones were used in mountainous terrain and in settlements, while the latter proved useful in sieges. They lobbed bombs, exploding projectiles, the largest mortars were 60 pdrs.
The last artillery piece were the Congreve rockets. I remember them from dramatic depictions of battles in literature.

That's it for today.


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 >>/49968/
In 1848 they had quite a few months to arrange foreign purchases.
The revolution basically was done on March 15th, then with the blessing of the king they started the legislative work, on the 22th they accepted the law about setting up the national guard, the recruitment started in May. The first military challenge was the Serbian revolt, started in late May - early June. While this was part of the Habsburg wider strategy, it did not meant the start of the war of independence. The Court was busy elsewhere, they had problems in Czechia, Vienna, and chiefly Italy. They had to consolidate the situation first. The war starts essentially with Jelacic's intervention, on September 11st he crosses the river Drava from Croatia, as the agent of the Court (and not like a Croatian separatist). Before the Croatian mobilization they might delayed the transports with bureaucratic bs, but from late March to early September it was peace on paper.
I found that the first, earliest purchase was the Belgian, they bought 4-5000 muskets. From England they also procured 19-20000. The officer entrusted with the deal was sent abroad on July 2. So the guns were brought in the next two months.
This officer, called Sztankó Soma (~Samuel Stanko, from Northern Hungary), during autumn also managed to smuggle machines and equipment necessary for manufacturing weapons, and percussion caps. Then he set up the factories.
To close down his history: he participated in the fights too. Got 12 years of prison, sit 3 years, got amnesty. Then teacher. After the Austro-Hungarian compromise officer again in the Hungarian Defense Force. Retired in 1875. Died in 1896, because of his illness - I dunno what it was - he committed suicide. May the soil be light for him.




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Very nice were having this festivity yearly, but when the tradition started? Because it did not right after Saint Stephen's canonization.
The first who categorized it as a national - "official state" - holiday was Queen Maria Theresia in 1771 when the pope, in order to reduce the number of religious holidays, took out Saint Stephen's feast from the list of those. In order to celebrate the patron saint of her apostolic kingdom, Maria Theresa also ordered the Holy Dexter to be taken to Buda - from Ragusa (today: Dubrovnik), with a stop in Wien - it was presented to the Saint Sigismund chapel in the Castle of Buda.
Since her legitimacy was on wobbly legs, essentially in all her countries, she made an effort to cater to traditions and formalities, to prove and show she has all the rights she needs to rule over her domains. In Hungary too. Related to the topic on hand she also used the title of "apostolic king/queen" of Hungary, which technically all the kings of Hungary were entitled to use (very few did in practice) since Saint Stephen gained the right to carry the apostolic cross in front of him. She had a minor disagreement with the pope Clement XIII over this, whom questioned this entitlement, had a bit of exchanges of mail, and in the end he authorized the use.

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 >>/50889/
She took some other measures that catered to the Hungarian nation (the noble nation). She created the Order of Maria Therese, a military decoration, and rewarded soldiers from all the empire as the Queen of Hungary. Then she created the Order of Saint Stephen, a civilian decoration. She also refreshed and old medieval award specifically for the Hungarian nobility. She was the one who organized the Hungarian noble bodyguard unit for the court, taken the youth sent from the Hungarian counties.
Shel also did steps to mend the body of the country together. The 150 years of the Ottoman conquest and the following reconquest, or as some of the rulers thought about it: new conquest, did a number on the administration of the regions. She gave back the Banat to the country, and Fiume too. She reintegrated those towns of Szepes which were pawned by king Sigismund to the Poles over three centuries ago (on the occasion of the first partition of Polan...). She also created claims for the Hungarian crown onto Galicia and Lodomeria.

I don't want to go into the whole story of her rule - or the problems that left unmended -, so I'll just end this here. Generally she remembered positively, especially considering she was a Habsburg, and and absolutist monarch. Although people don't pay much mind to her these days. I think all in all she was a positive force for the country, but then she recognized she needed to give something to gain support, and she needed a lot of support to keep her countries.


 >>/50890/
>  She was the one who organized the Hungarian noble bodyguard unit for the court, taken the youth sent from the Hungarian counties.
This sounds like the strongest message out of any of those measures, she was entrusting her safety to her subjects.


 >>/50894/
I can agree with that. It had other effects too, like it offered opportunities for the lower nobility to gain prestige and connections, or it added a unique cultural color to the court.
Most stuff prior are establishing relation with the Árpáds, the OG Hungarian dynasty, the marriage relation to them and the claim of ancestry that came with it gave the Habsburgs legitimacy. Some of em put emphasis on this, some not at all (such as Joseph, son of Maria Theresa).

 >>/50895/
I heard such gossips about Big K too. And you are probably right.


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Well, I missed out on the October 6th commemoration day, but End was down so I'll blame onto that.
But this one is kinda mandatory due to its nature as national holiday.

Let's talk about the Aftermath.
Heh, now I'm thinking I should write about the Western "help", kek. Nah, gonna stick to the aftermath.

Well, let's set the scene:
The Soviet Union's mechanized divisions kicked the eastern door on us (1956. November 4th), and brought Kádár with themselves on their tanks.
Kádár János served as the communist Minister of Interior for a short period in 1948-50 while the Workers' Party monopolized the state power. Then he was imprisoned by Rákosi. His fault was not being a Moscowite communist (or at least a Jew). After the the position of Rákosi and co. solidified they started to purge the Party too, not just everyone else. Rákosi and 4 more Moscowite Jews formed a clique at the top of the food chain, and wanted all the power concentrated in their hands. They were hardcore Stalinist. Everyone outside of them were deemed to be a danger to them and their plans. One of these dangers were the home brew communists, such as Kádár.
But after Stalin's death their position weakened, and the revolution at least managed to let Moscow know the Hungarian people don't want them anymore. So Moscow gave up on this, and reached for other tools they considered sufficient. Kádár might posed a threat in Rákosi's twisted mind, but he was a trustable enough communist, despite some youthful faults in his past. Or perhaps for the faults, I dunno. I'm sure historians wrote about why Kádár was picked for the task, but that would deviate far from our current topic.

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So, while the revolution and war of independence was still ongoing they formed a government around Kádár, and when the Soviet intervetion begin they started a broadcast saying that Nagy Imre (the PM during the struggle, faithful communist himself, Muscowite but not part of the 5-man clique and had troubling social-democratic deviations) was weak and counter-revolutionaries sidetracked the reform movement. They are essentially labeled the revolution as a reactionary counter-revolution - since communists appropriated the term revolution - and said this is why they had to form a new government, and then this government asked the help of the Soviet comrades. On November 7th Kádár and his govt. arrived to Budapest. Fights were went on to the 11th.

The Reprisal was essentially a political murder spree in a legal coating.
Random executions basically started right after the new government came with the Red Army. During the revolution the political police, the AVH was abolished, members fled to the Soviet Union, and they came back, employed again in the state apparatus, mind set on revenge. The Red Army supported them, their local commander was a KGB general.
By 1957 March-April, the legal foundation was laid, but not by the legislation, but by the central committee of the party which issued statutes in the name of the government. They simplified the penal procedure, condensed it to the quickness of martial law. New judiciary bodies were set up entrusted with the retribution.
They were quite busy. They found 26-27 000 people guilty. 470 people got death penalty, 372 were executed by them (some execution were done outside the legal framework). Over 20 000 were sent to prison, and another 10-15 000 were gulaged. Over 200 000 people made the choice to emigrate.

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The era of Reprisal is usually considered the years between 1956 and 1963. But cases went on beyond that, verdicts were made at least to '66. But '63 was the year of the first general amnesty, when many were pardoned. Many rot in prison up to 1974.
Couple of interesting things to note.
In '57 December, they surveyed the work, and the Minister of Interior, Biszku Béla, pointed out, that "the numbers of physical extermination is relatively low". So they reopened the case of hundreds of people who served in various armed bodies of the state (from police, through prison guards, to army), stating their sentences were unproportionally light compared to their crime. 26 were got capital punishment.
Lot of people who participated in the fights against the Soviet forces were treated as common criminals and sentenced for attempted murder or murder. They were imprisoned as such, and 144 were executed as such. In relation to this those who were politically persecuted in 1989 got rehabilitated, the "common criminals" had to wait til 2000.
Biszku Béla was accused of various crimes after 2010, even war crimes, but all cases were dropped.

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During our discussion of this national holiday, the name Metternich came up a couple of times. What do we know?
Apparently Metternich is an Austrian rock band formed in 2016.
https://invidious.protokolla.fi/watch?v=mPAREt9aMUg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mPAREt9aMUg
https://invidious.protokolla.fi/watch?v=h_4RUPlwOJc
https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_4RUPlwOJc

Okay, this probably not it.
We are, of course, talking about Prince Klemens von Metternich, Chancellor and Foreign Minister of the Austrian Empire, the great opposer of revolutionary movements, and the counterweight in the Habsburg Court that prevented any meaningful change from feudalistic order, whose actions to keep the lid forcibly on the pot of boiling water just hastened the emergence of a new revolutionary wave. Some might call him close-minded, some clear-sighted. He was one of the most influential person of his day and age, probably his greatest work was the redrawn Europe after the Napoleonic Wars, although he wasn't the sole author of it.
I don't want to present a biography, read Wikipedia for that. I just want to acknowledge his work that led to the Revolution (and War of Independence) which he was not part of since he was forced by the Viennese to resign two days prior to the events on Hungary. But again while it wasn't entirely his own construct, he made a great pair for Emperor and King Francis in his absolutist politics. And then he became one party in another duo - with Franz Anton von Kolowrat - which replaced the weak Ferdinand to hold the reigns when it came to real governing.

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I skimmed couple of stuff on the internet, flipped couple of pages of books and I got the impression that while he was a diplomat to the bone, who wielded words like a sword, and was a schemer, a central figure in the Court's intrigue he did believe in traditions, in the conservatism of his era, in Christianity (despite being a womanizer apparently), and the enlightened absolutism (although Francis' absolutism was way less enlightened than some previous notable monarchs). He probably wasn't really a cynic, but he thought about the new ideas as silly fads of the youngsters or some such. Most importantly he did not felt ill towards Hungarians or the Kingdom of Hungary - unlike the Czech Kollowrat.
I found his comments to various people about his visits of the 1925-27 Diet (the Hungarian legislation) amusing. Lemme quote him:
actually forces me to change my language and my robes. I have to speak Latin and dress like a Hussar, and the only liberty which I take on this occasion is a refusal to wear moustaches
Fun depiction of Hungarian noble fashion. And:
Today I am traveling back and forth between the two capitals, happily no farther from each other than two London suburbs; in one I am a German and in the other a Hungarian; a strange fate.
The two capitals he meant Vienna and Pozsony (Pressburg), where the assembly assembled in those years.
He did fear Hungarian nationalism tho, but not liberal and socialist notions. Even in case of the moderate Count Széchenyi, he felt suspicion and utilized the secret police to shadow him, just in case. His views also blindsided him, for he saw that the Hungarian nobility as a whole was even more conservative than himself (he even considered the Estates of Hungary as a support of the king), but never considered that the rest of the society will demand a change, with the leadership of couple of key figures from the reform-nobility.

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Couple of more things I wanna note.
It seems Metternich was fond of the extravagant lifestyle a politician of his stature enjoyed - and to keep that up he spent a copious amount of money, both from the imperial treasury and from loans. He was indebted to the Rothschilds throughout his life. Those guys however don't give just money not expecting more in return, but if someone is broke but in high office they surely accept "favors" in return.
Related to this. After he was forced to resign on 1848 March 13th he took his family out of Austria and traveled to London. Their stay was entirely financed by loans, this time besides the bankers he also got money from Czar Nicholas I. It is obvious he preserved his foreign contacts (aristocracy everywhere was all related anyway) and influence, and kept open lines. I bet later for the Russian intervention of 1949 he extended his influence and lobbied. Holy Alliance and all that.
Lastly it is not easy to tell his actual role and actions. As above noted he put the secret police on Széchenyi, but his main area was foreign politics and Kolowrat held the interior matters. Does this means that actually Kolowrat decided to watch Széchenyi? However Metternich was the senior, he was the Chancellor after all, he could have a say in anything. On the other hand it is noted that Francis took Kolowrat to counter Metternich, and they remained competitors forever.
It's obvious that the Court was full of intrigues, and as I noted in this thread it was also full of cliques and the courtiers had their own interests and belonged to various cliques depending on these interests. They tried to play to others to gain advantage and favors, gain more prestige, power, and access to the treasury. One thing unified them tho: they all had an interest to keep the current order , because their existence and the continuation of their games depended on it.

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Always keep in mind that all men are born in the same state, and nothing elevates more but the humility, nothing sinks more than pride and malice.

King Saint Stephen dedicated the Admonitions to his son Saint Emeric, a short set if instructions, a so called mirror for princes, a guide on how to rule, about the ten pillars of kings. The actual author seems to be a high priest, close to the king, but it is surely was ordered by Stephen, and contains thoughts that implies he also gave his opinions what to cover and how.
It's fun that the introduction notes: soft things make you soft. Emeric as a child could not yet face the hardships of military campaigns and battles, which were important themes in the life of the adult king Stephen, and he needs not just the nourishment of soft mush he was fed until now, but has to taste the sour wine of life.

I. Keeping he Catholic faith
For starters this is an interesting point. He says only those can gain the title of the king who are faithful and Catholic. We shouldn't forget that when this was written, and when the Hungarian Kingdom formed, when the Hungarian rulers gained the kingship, the title Rex - instead of Dux, elevated from there - the conflict between Rome and Constantinople was deeper and deeper and culminated in the 1054's Great Schism. So firstly this point shows only Christians can become kings, it is a Christian title. Second while at that point still everyone was Catholic, perhaps this is a refusal of Orthodoxy.
The work mentions the importance the belief in the Holy Trinity as is, and warn against those who want to change or reduce or inflate it. Warns about heresy.
II. Honor the Church's order
The Church as institution not the building or ritual. As the title says, honor it, defend it, and make it grow.
III. Respect the high priest
The advice is: they should be the key officials. Absolution is in their hands and they can tie men to sin too. On the other hand if one of them turns to sin, the king should warn him and make him find him the path back to righteousness (or snitch on him to the Church).

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IV. Respect the lay aristocracy and warriors
They are the wall defending the country, the protectors of the weak, the destroyers of enemies, and the expanders of the borders. They shouldn't be put to servitude. Don't be haughty with them, but lead them with virtue
V. True judgement and patience
I feel this one Machiavellian, perhaps I could find hints to previous points too, but this is a bit more apparent. Essentially leave judgements to the judges, and only serve justice in cases which suits well enough to make the king look good. Otherwise appear patient with everyone, don't swear oaths - don't pick sides essentially, he should distance himself from making enemies for decisions, leave that to the judges.
VI. About hosting guests and how to patronize them
Guests and newcomers enrich the country. They are basically sources of information, opportunities to learn. They bring knowledge and skills, weapons (literal, but information is a weapon too).
VII. The weight of the Council
Listen to the Council, listen to the old and wise. Avoid young, dumb, mediocre and proud ones.
VIII. Sons follow the predecessors
This is about continuity and traditions. The one about guests sounds progressive, this one is conservative. Fathers should direct the sons, and sons should obey their fathers. And then repeat when they become ones, follow the customs of the old. This point also says that each folk has their won customs and they should by ruled by that custom.
IX. Keep praying
X. Piety, mercy, and other virtues
Patience, strength, humility, temperance, gentleness, honourable, chasteness.

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I missed out the October 6th commemoration of the Martyrs of Arad. I wanted to take a look of other political martyrs of the era, Italy is bound to have some, and I heard something about the Fenians. But I missed the opportunity, oh well.

So I'm thinking now - in honour of our '56 Revoulution - to take a look at Czechoslovakia in 1968.
The Prague Spring
I don't know much, especially not the details, so this will more like a general inquiry into the topic on my behalf, and perhaps summary of things. See also: Wikipedia. All right maybe I'll try write something that Wikipee does not, I'm curious about Hungarian ties to it ofc.
As stated before politicians always mix daily politics with these national holidays so I don't listen their speeches.

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One could think the Hungarian Revolution of '56 had great impact to the other Eastern Block countries. It is hard to measure but it seems the opposite is the truth. Officialy it was labelled as a counter-revolution and the rest of the opinions were suppressed. There were little to no samizdat activity that could give a voice, censorship ruled.
We already had some understanding with Poland, but Romania was openly hostile, Czechosolovakia ditto (with serious anti-Hungarian chauvinist overtones in both countries). Officially in the latter country as a direct reaction there was a "secret" memorandum that declared support for the leadership of Antonin Novotny, securing his position of First Secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia which he held since 1953, then he became president in 1957, held both offices till the Prage Spring removed him.
As our Revolution gained some of the ideas from the de-Stalinization and some wind too, Novotny's reign started with that - but as a counterweight. He seems he was more of a hardliner, who put effort into halting any thawing processes, and his "socialist" constitution of 1960 was even more formally communist than the previous one they accepted in 1948. So this "destalinization" went slow with occasional pushes from more reformist elements (such as writers, or the next First Secretary, Alexander Dubcek), eroding Novotny's popularity.
I can't say how wide was the popular support, but judging by the events that followed the later Soviet/Warsaw Pact invasion it seems that sympathizers were from all over the country from all level of the society - but not in any impactful numbers. People wanted changes but did not want to risk a more serious push for them. What we should see, that the changes were the product of the rise of an internal political opposition, and were introduced upside down, no armed uprising against the communist leadership happened unlike at Hungary.
In 1968 January Dubcek and a pal cornered Novotny, and Brezhnev (probably already probing the opinions of the leaders of the satellite states) decided to green light Novotny's retirement. The issue seemed to be decided but then Dubcek and many reformists started to talk nonsense about living standards, multi-party systems, democracies, building relations with the West and such. This compelled Brezhnev to engage them and tell 'em they should slow down a bit. They agreed, but The Head and Brow of the Soviet Union was not convinced, he saw that the process will lead to losing Czechoslovakia, and ordered the tanks of the SU and allied Warsaw Pact (Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary) countries' tanks rolling. No clash happened between the two sides, almost only civilians resisted, mostly with non-violent methods.
Dubcek had to go, he was replaced by Gustav Husak. All enacted laws and reforms were reverted, except the one that made Czechoslovakia a federation of two countries. Later some of the reforms were activated again as amendments if I understood correctly.

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As for Hungary.
It appears that at the same time the Czechoslovak reforms started, the Kádár regime here introduced new economical practices, trying to make the country's economy actually work. The changes put forward in the neighbour were mostly political in nature, so our leadership started to pray to Saint Lenin that they keep them very "moderate". They feared if things were getting out of hands then our economical project will be scraped, or perhaps even the thoughts of resistance will be reignited here or at least Moscow will think that's happening too.
Since their fears seemed to become true, they decided to show they are loyal subjects of Moscow, and they can march along with the Warsaw Pact, right into Czechoslovakia, when finally Brezhnev decided at the military solution. Kádár even declared that if it comes to counter-revolution in Czechoslovakia, he will vote wholeheartedly for military intervention. Well he did the same with his own country so I don't see how could he not applied the same principle elsewhere.
From his opinion we could also deduce, that the Dubcek-turn, was went far enough for him to consider it a counter-revolution. However this is not the case. He gave the opinion to Brezhnev (on the day of the invasion, on August 21), that the events in Czechoslovakia are closer to the Polish events of 1956 than to the Hungarian counter-revolution of the same year. Still, Hungarian forces were participated the same.

Supposedly later in 1988-89 when our socialist system started to collapse they considered the moral Czechoslovakian lesson and example.




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